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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:34 am 
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BenVincent wrote:
Yeah, a bunch of us R2'ers were watching that round in support of Nikki. I was that nerdy-looking kid in the suit. (Wait... I guess that was... every guy in the NCFCA.) I only competed in Apol last year because it was my first year, but I qualified to Nats so I spent all my free time watching LD rounds.

Why won't I see you at any tournaments? Are you not going to Nats? (Phew. One threat removed from the "Well-I'm-Doomed" list.)


Okay cool. Yeah, that certainly narrows it down :p Qualifying to Nats your first year is pretty impressive, nice job.

Well, my mom wouldn't let me take it seriously this year. So I've only been to one tournament and I'm not even sure I'll go to Regionals. But definitely not Nats.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Clare Downing is one of the really good ones from Region 8 I believe. 17-1 in all regionals preliminary rounds and top seed at the last two regional qualifiers, winning speaks both times. I don't pay enough attention to LD to know who else is really good, some names that come to mind would be Jake Dyess and Michael Mouser. To me, lots of the good teams get knocked out simply by virtue of loosing the coin flip to a decent opponent.

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John Mark Porter, Alumni
Arx Axiom/Carpe Dictum/Verdict/UADC/HSDC/HSDRC

2011-12 l Porter/Thomason, Light/Porter
2012-13 l Bailey/Porter
2013-14 l Bailey/Porter
2014-15 l Folkert/Porter

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:54 pm 
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JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
Clare Downing is one of the really good ones from Region 8 I believe. 17-1 in all regionals preliminary rounds and top seed at the last two regional qualifiers, winning speaks both times. I don't pay enough attention to LD to know who else is really good, some names that come to mind would be Jake Dyess and Michael Mouser. To me, lots of the good teams get knocked out simply by virtue of loosing the coin flip to a decent opponent.


Clare definitely seems like a threat. I've heard her name tossed around quite a bit. Seems like a major contender.

I definitely agree about the coin flip thing. This rez definitely lends itself to a good bit of bias, and coin flips seem to be deciding a lot of rounds. But I think as far as argumentation itself goes, some debaters certainly pose a bigger "threat" than others simply because they have better speaks/better logic/more experience, etc. So far we've got these names:

Mary-Katherine Collins
Stephen Frantz
Kaitlyn Simon
Katie Martin
Noah Foster
Gabe Hooper
Wayne Hurty
Benjamin Crosby
Joseph Abell
Clare Downing
Jake Dyess
Michael Mouser
Me ;) (Joke, people. Joke. Me is a novice.)

Seems like a decent list. Of this list, we have these folks coming to ID Open:

Mary-Katherine
Stephen
Kaitlyn
Katie
Gabe
Wayne

Oh, and me. Well, it's been nice knowing you, world. I'm going to go put on sackcloth and ashes and weep for having no hope of victory.

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Ben Vincent, R II
South Sound Speech and Debate
www.lifeinthesunrise.com

I have won things. No really, I promise.

"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:56 am 
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I'm just going to throw this out there. It would probably be better if you had no idea who these people are. I won a lot of rounds before I even walked in the room, because people would just psych themselves out -- they'd have excellent arguments (even arguments that could have beaten me), but they didn't have confidence, and they didn't carry their args throughout the round. As a judge, you need to show me that you want to win, and if you don't think you're going to win, I can tell. If you don't know that you're supposed to lose to someone, you stand a much better chance of beating them. Three of the rounds I lost last year were to novices who had no idea who I was -- and therefore didn't know they were supposed to lose to me.

My overall point being, don't go around trying to identify your 'threats.' Play your game and play it very well. Let the chips fall where they may.


Last edited by The LDer on Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:32 am 
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The LDer wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out there. It would probably be better if you had no idea who these people are. I won a lot of rounds before I even walked in the room, because people would just psych themselves out -- they'd have excellent arguments (even arguments that could have beaten me), but they didn't have confidence, and they didn't carry their args throughout the round. As a judge, you need to show me that you want to win, and if you don't think you're going to win, I can tell. If you don't know that you're supposed to lose to someone, you stand a much better chance of beating them. Three of the rounds I lost last year were to novices who had no idea who I was -- and therefore didn't know they were supposed to lose to me.

My overall point being, don't go around trying to identify your 'threats.' Play your game and play it very well. Let the chips fall where they may.


I agree with you completely on this. I was merely asking out of curiosity, as I'm unfamiliar with the "big names" outside of my region. But personally, I don't think there really should be "big names." Though it's only my first year, I've already seen more NCFCA "elitism" than I think there should be. I know it's natural, but people definitely tend to separate people based on past achievements and ability. I've seen this for myself. Last year, I was a speech-only competitor, I was from a tiny club, and I didn't know anybody. This year, though a novice in debate, I've actually competed pretty solidly and have the second-highest At-Large in my region (by my calculations). All of a sudden, people are paying attention to me. It kind of bugs me that success in competition leads to friends. It definitely shouldn't be that way in a Christian league.

So yeah, I completely agree with you on the "threats" issue. That was more out of curiosity than anything else.

_________________
Ben Vincent, R II
South Sound Speech and Debate
www.lifeinthesunrise.com

I have won things. No really, I promise.

"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


Last edited by The Ginga Ninja on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:45 pm 
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BenVincent wrote:
It kind of bugs me that success in competition leads to friends. It definitely shouldn't be that way in a Christian league.


Amen to that. As Christians, we are supposed to have unconditional love for others. Success-based relationships are conditional, not unconditional.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:41 pm 
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BenVincent wrote:
It kind of bugs me that success in competition leads to friends. It definitely shouldn't be that way in a Christian league.

Don't get me wrong here because I agree with your sentiment, but also, people who break often are those who have debated for some time and have a lot of experience. The longer you are in debate the more people you get to know. I didn't know many people my first year and I'm not a highly social person, but you get to know more people the farther along you go. I'm not going to delve into it a bunch but yes, breaking often and performing well means increased interaction with other people and that contributes to more friendships in an organic way. People aren't becoming friendly simply because they want to be friends with "successful people" (though there is always SOME degree of that I suppose). That said, more can be done to reach out to others. Maybe someone could start a new thread where we would be able to share ideas on the subject.

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John Mark Porter, Alumni
Arx Axiom/Carpe Dictum/Verdict/UADC/HSDC/HSDRC

2011-12 l Porter/Thomason, Light/Porter
2012-13 l Bailey/Porter
2013-14 l Bailey/Porter
2014-15 l Folkert/Porter

2015-16 I Childs/Porter


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:01 am 
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JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
BenVincent wrote:
It kind of bugs me that success in competition leads to friends. It definitely shouldn't be that way in a Christian league.

Don't get me wrong here because I agree with your sentiment, but also, people who break often are those who have debated for some time and have a lot of experience. The longer you are in debate the more people you get to know. I didn't know many people my first year and I'm not a highly social person, but you get to know more people the farther along you go. I'm not going to delve into it a bunch but yes, breaking often and performing well means increased interaction with other people and that contributes to more friendships in an organic way. People aren't becoming friendly simply because they want to be friends with "successful people" (though there is always SOME degree of that I suppose). That said, more can be done to reach out to others. Maybe someone could start a new thread where we would be able to share ideas on the subject.


This.^ And I would also make sure to distinguish the people who befriend you to learn from you and who befriend you because of some social status given to successful people. If you are a really helpful person who likes to give advice to others, you are inherently going to become more of a social magnet.

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Ethos is also pretty cool, you should check it out.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:17 am 
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JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
BenVincent wrote:
It kind of bugs me that success in competition leads to friends. It definitely shouldn't be that way in a Christian league.

Don't get me wrong here because I agree with your sentiment, but also, people who break often are those who have debated for some time and have a lot of experience. The longer you are in debate the more people you get to know. I didn't know many people my first year and I'm not a highly social person, but you get to know more people the farther along you go. I'm not going to delve into it a bunch but yes, breaking often and performing well means increased interaction with other people and that contributes to more friendships in an organic way. People aren't becoming friendly simply because they want to be friends with "successful people" (though there is always SOME degree of that I suppose). That said, more can be done to reach out to others. Maybe someone could start a new thread where we would be able to share ideas on the subject.


I definitely don't think it's intentional, and I agree that it's likely often organic. I was basing it on my own experience. I was a first year competitor last year, only competed in Apol, and knew literally nobody. I made no effort to make friends, and thus went through a whole season without really knowing anyone. Then, this year, I add debate (LD), HI, and impromptu, and suddenly I'm competing super well. I've made it to final round in LD twice, and placed first in all my IEs at least once. Suddenly, people pay attention to me. "Successful" debaters chat me up, etc. I'm definitely not claiming that this is always the case, but my own experience was a little worrying. I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally being elitist or excluding others, I was just pointing out what I've seen. I definitely think it's important that we be intentional about avoiding this issue.

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Ben Vincent, R II
South Sound Speech and Debate
www.lifeinthesunrise.com

I have won things. No really, I promise.

"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:37 am 
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BenVincent wrote:
I definitely don't think it's intentional, and I agree that it's likely often organic. I was basing it on my own experience. I was a first year competitor last year, only competed in Apol, and knew literally nobody. I made no effort to make friends, and thus went through a whole season without really knowing anyone. Then, this year, I add debate (LD), HI, and impromptu, and suddenly I'm competing super well. I've made it to final round in LD twice, and placed first in all my IEs at least once. Suddenly, people pay attention to me. "Successful" debaters chat me up, etc. I'm definitely not claiming that this is always the case, but my own experience was a little worrying. I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally being elitist or excluding others, I was just pointing out what I've seen. I definitely think it's important that we be intentional about avoiding this issue.

Well, I'd have to say that your situation is an exception. If someone comes out of nowhere and starts winning tournaments then others take notice. Also, if your only event last year was apologetics your exposure was necessarily lessened. People connect over similar interests and experiences and it is a whole lot easier for me to go up to a novice debater and ask them how their last round went than it is for me to connect with someone who is not sharing The experience. Once again, I'm not saying that your point is invalid or that we can't do more, I'm saying your experience doesn't accurately reflect the situation. Furthermore, people do try to be successful, when they see someone else being successful they try to learn from that person.

_________________
John Mark Porter, Alumni
Arx Axiom/Carpe Dictum/Verdict/UADC/HSDC/HSDRC

2011-12 l Porter/Thomason, Light/Porter
2012-13 l Bailey/Porter
2013-14 l Bailey/Porter
2014-15 l Folkert/Porter

2015-16 I Childs/Porter


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:56 am 
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JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
BenVincent wrote:
I definitely don't think it's intentional, and I agree that it's likely often organic. I was basing it on my own experience. I was a first year competitor last year, only competed in Apol, and knew literally nobody. I made no effort to make friends, and thus went through a whole season without really knowing anyone. Then, this year, I add debate (LD), HI, and impromptu, and suddenly I'm competing super well. I've made it to final round in LD twice, and placed first in all my IEs at least once. Suddenly, people pay attention to me. "Successful" debaters chat me up, etc. I'm definitely not claiming that this is always the case, but my own experience was a little worrying. I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally being elitist or excluding others, I was just pointing out what I've seen. I definitely think it's important that we be intentional about avoiding this issue.

Well, I'd have to say that your situation is an exception. If someone comes out of nowhere and starts winning tournaments then others take notice. Also, if your only event last year was apologetics your exposure was necessarily lessened. People connect over similar interests and experiences and it is a whole lot easier for me to go up to a novice debater and ask them how their last round went than it is for me to connect with someone who is not sharing The experience. Once again, I'm not saying that your point is invalid or that we can't do more, I'm saying your experience doesn't accurately reflect the situation. Furthermore, people do try to be successful, when they see someone else being successful they try to learn from that person.


I agree. I apologize if it sounded like I was claiming this as a widespread issue. I certainly can't make any claims beyond my own experience, and I realize my own experience is the exception rather than the rule in many ways. I was merely commenting on something I'd observed in my limited experience with the league. I certainly am very impressed with the godliness in the league and have great respect for my fellow competitors.

Hopefully any misunderstanding has been cleared up. Sorry for the confusion.

_________________
Ben Vincent, R II
South Sound Speech and Debate
www.lifeinthesunrise.com

I have won things. No really, I promise.

"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


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