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 Post subject: At-Large Points
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:13 pm
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Did NCFCA change the way at-large points are distributed? Because based on the 2017 qualification system document, it looks like they no longer take tournament size into consideration. If I'm interpreting the document correctly, 1st place teams receive 70 points regardless of whether they were competing against 50 other teams or 5 other teams.

Does anyone know if that info is actually accurate? If so, that seems so messed up....

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 Post subject: Re: At-Large Points
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Heck yeah! NCFCA, meet STAT-PADDING!

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 Post subject: Re: At-Large Points
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:35 pm 
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I appreciate the transparency, I guess? At least we don't have to guess at what the at large formula is. But this sucks for teams who win large tournaments.

Good find, marina; thanks for posting.

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 Post subject: Re: At-Large Points
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:29 pm 
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As the one running our region's at-large spreadsheet this year, I can confirm that, by the qualification system document on the NCFCA website, all the above is correct. At large is now as follows: for final placing, your receive points equivalent to 70 divided by your final placing (or two less than your final placing, if at National Opens, to account for the two teams that pre-qualify, so 3rd becomes 1st, etc.) and points for your preliminary standing are: 4 for first seed, 2 for second, 1 for third.

Yes, I agree, it seems a bit crazy to me. It does equalize districts, which is nice for the teams in the smaller district in a region, but that's about the only upside. It also helps teams who can't afford to go to large tournaments, though that is a problem we will still have with teams who aren't able to go to many tournaments to maximize at-large under either system. Anyway, it is what it is; I wish NCFCA had announced this change rather than just putting in the qualification system document that people may not read.

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Connor T. Daniels | Hillsdale College '21
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 Post subject: Re: At-Large Points
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:59 pm 
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I tend to not like it, especially as it would have sunk any aspirations I ever had of getting an at-large spot, but it makes sense when you think about it I guess.
It makes every tournament important (which can be a good or a bad thing). It also means that it is HIGHLY unlikely that anyone gets an at-large invite if they haven't won or gotten to finals before, which means there is more emphasis on consistently good placing and actually winning a tournament. No one who won a tournament in the regular season last year ended up directly qualifying to nationals at our regionals (one didn't break, one was eliminated in octas as a low seed, two were eliminated in quarters). Still, as it was the teams that got the at-large invites or were next in line were those who had won tournaments previously or placed in semis at National Opens.

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 Post subject: Re: At-Large Points
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Voice of Reason wrote:
It also means that it is HIGHLY unlikely that anyone gets an at-large invite if they haven't won or gotten to finals before, which means there is more emphasis on consistently good placing and actually winning a tournament.


That is true enough, though I am concerned about the difference between first and second place. Under the system M.E. year and prior, first place received 1 more point than second, and under the system last year, first place received 50% more points than second. With the current system, the first place team will receive the double the at-large points received by the second place team. To be honest, there isn't that much difference between first and second--last year, my partner and I won finals on a 4-3 decision. So, realistically, I don't see how one can win an at-large slot under the new system without, not just consistent placing, but winning a tournament (or placing third at a National Open, which has the same difference between third and fourth). Consistent second-place teams may receive less or equal at-large to a one-off first place team. I don't know that it will make much difference since the winning teams tend to be the ones who get the at-large slots anyway, but I do prefer the balance of last year's system to this one.

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Connor T. Daniels | Hillsdale College '21
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 Post subject: Re: At-Large Points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:24 am 
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Way back in the day the formula was the number of competitors in your event divided by your rank. (The formula was "supposed" to be secret b/c the NCFCA thought that people knowing their at-large points was detrimental to fair competition, or something like that; of course that didn't stop people from running at-large spreadsheets.)
This created a huge windfall for whoever got first place, especially at a large tournament. Like another poster mentioned this was pretty skewed - it didn't primarily reward people who consistently performed well but didn't make it at regionals, it rewarded people who happened to win a big tournament even if they never broke again that year.

Then they changed the formula to the "plus 1" system. So if you got first place, your points was the number of competitors divided by 2. If you got 2nd place, your points was the number of competitors divided by 3. And so on. I think this (or even a plus 2 system) seems like a pretty perfect formula.

I've been out for a while but I'm surprised to hear they are going back to the huge windfall for the winner. I'm always a little amused when I see a bureaucracy go full circle like that.

But not including tournament size in the formula seems a bad idea to me.

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