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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:47 pm 
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y-man23 wrote:
I think the underlying question here is whether we should support a system that protects innocent competitors from being unfairly adjudicated at the expense of a few competitors possibly receiving an unfair advantage or a system that operates based off of no tolerance and risks disqualifying a few of those innocent competitors. It's my belief that the first option is more favorable.

Pretty much this.
The adage that we get is "better to let 10 guilty man go free than to punish 1 innocent man" (though I would technically disagree with the statement). Granted this is meant for the judicial system, but I think it has merit outside of that. When we look at the NCFCA I think we've seen cases where innocent mistakes are punished. The question becomes do you prefer that there be cheaters who get away because they are given the benefit of the doubt, or would you rather have innocents penalized? I personally prefer the former.

I feel that I basically just rephrased Jacob's argument :D.

All that said, life isn't fair.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:37 pm 
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y-man23 wrote:
being unfairly adjudicated

While I agree with this, I don't believe that we're operating off of the same definitions of what is fair. If you break the rules, you are adjudicated. That is just. That is fair. Somehow, I don't think that you agree with this.

Your question is therefore a false dilemma. It isn't a choice between fairness and unfairness, rather it is a choice between enforcement and leniency. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I would prefer enforcement due to the teaching opportunity that it has for students. If you break the rules, you are punished. When the rules aren't enforced it is very easy to slip away from an understanding of following the law. What a lot of kids need is a reality check, not grace.

Now perhaps in some cases the punishment could be lighter, but punishment is still required and is in the long term best interests of students.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:00 pm 
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Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:33 pm 
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Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.


NCFCA is competitive.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:39 pm 
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Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.

Actually, yes. Grace and withholding of punishment can easily be counterproductive, especially with impressionable students. Governing authorities are not called in scripture to be gracious, rather they are called to uphold and enforce the law. By participating in NCFCA, students have consigned themselves to follow the rules set forth by NCFCA and NCFCA has the duty to make sure that such rules are upheld.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:04 pm 
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Fortunately I've never had to have a run-in with adjudication or rules committees, since I was a good little boy :) So keep in mind that my comments are only based off of knowledge of Stoa's procedures and stories about NCFCA.

There needs to be a balance. While we cannot judge the thoughts and intents of the heart, as only God can, I feel that there needs to be two improvements for both NCFCA and Stoa adjudication procedures:

(1) Have specific penalties for specific actions. Maybe a three-strikes system where the punishment becomes more severe upon repeat infractions. This would help stop the arbitrary rulings where students like Shayne's friend get harshly punished for the "Hot or Not" app. Sure, you can't envision every possible undesirable action, and we shouldn't have regulations that run longer than War and Peace. But right now, we have the somewhat vague penalty of getting auto ranked 8th or thrown out of the tournament for using the Internet in Extemp, for example. But what if someone does have a compelling case that they simply forgot? What do we do then? Perhaps have some sort of a reduced penalty that still hurts, but isn't as severe as tossing them out of the entire tournament for an unintentional mistake. True, you want to teach students to operate above board and not get themselves into such situations, and we need to enforce rules, but in cases where the student is innocent or most likely innocent, tossing them out of the tournament or the league is too severe.

(2) If I understand correctly, there doesn't seem to be any sort of appeals process in place. Once the ruling is handed down from on high, that's it. You're done. Which is strange, considering the fact that even pro athletes accused of major rule infractions like drugs or steroids get at least some form of appeal. So why shouldn't high school students in a Christian homeschool league get the opportunity to appeal?

So basically I'm saying let's make this more like a court, where you're innocent until proven guilty and where evidence and testimony get presented to prove guilt, and there is a specific penalty for a specific crime.

Oh yeah, and specifically for Stoa, could we pretty please actually write and publish formal adjudication procedures? Cause we don't have any right now to my knowledge. I've heard NCFCA has a public document to this affect but have not seen it; could someone link it to me? Kthxbai.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:11 pm 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.


NCFCA is competitive.


Lawls.

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Drew wrote:
GumboSoup wrote:
Dads ftw.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:14 pm 
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Timbalistea wrote:
The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.


NCFCA is competitive.


Lawls.


You get shiny stuff if you do well. If you don't you get to judge juniors. But honestly debate is competition.

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Caleb

Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:20 pm 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.


NCFCA is competitive.


Lawls.


You get shiny stuff if you do well. If you don't you get to judge juniors. But honestly debate is competition.


My apologies, if you mean competition in the broadest meaning of the word, yes. However, there is nothing truly competitive (meaning those who are more skilled/prepared will do better) about NCFCA. I think the league works well for what it is, don't get me wrong. It just isn't at heart a competitive league. I think misunderstanding on that point leads to much of the confusion we see about the league.

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Drew wrote:
GumboSoup wrote:
Dads ftw.
Tim is your dad?

http://twitch.tv/dutchwaffles
Usually streaming around 8 PM EST weeknights and unpredictably on weekends. Come on by and say hi sometime!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:22 pm 
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You get shiny stuff if you do well. If you don't you get to judge juniors. But honestly debate is competition.[/quote]
Hey! There is nothing wrong with judging juniors. :? :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:26 pm 
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Jonah.a.barnes wrote:
You get shiny stuff if you do well. If you don't you get to judge juniors. But honestly debate is competition.

Hey! There is nothing wrong with judging juniors. :? :D[/quote]

Nah it's fun to do and I've done it a bunch :lol:

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:26 pm 
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Timbalistea wrote:
The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.


NCFCA is competitive.


Lawls.


You get shiny stuff if you do well. If you don't you get to judge juniors. But honestly debate is competition.


My apologies, if you mean competition in the broadest meaning of the word, yes. However, there is nothing truly competitive (meaning those who are more skilled/prepared will do better) about NCFCA. I think the league works well for what it is, don't get me wrong. It just isn't at heart a competitive league. I think misunderstanding on that point leads to much of the confusion we see about the league.


You are saying that people who work harder don't do better?

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:50 pm 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:

You are saying that people who work harder don't do better?


Not in all cases but very often, yes. You have alumni judges who vote on their debate theory biases (like me), parent judges who vote on their policy and/or value and/or emotional biases and community judges who vote on any bias they happen to bring in the door with them. It's a truly random system and it works well for strengthening communication skills. However, that random nature really destroys any real sense of quantifiable competition and so often leads to the "suavest" teams walking away with the shiny.

Don't misunderstand me. I think the league is an amazing way for homeschooled kids to build some great interaction and communication skills. It worked wonderfully for me in that regard. It's just not a truly competitive exercise and those who think of it as such are really missing the point.

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Drew wrote:
GumboSoup wrote:
Dads ftw.
Tim is your dad?

http://twitch.tv/dutchwaffles
Usually streaming around 8 PM EST weeknights and unpredictably on weekends. Come on by and say hi sometime!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:56 pm 
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Timbalistea wrote:
Not in all cases but very often, yes. You have alumni judges who vote on their debate theory biases (like me), parent judges who vote on their policy and/or value and/or emotional biases and community judges who vote on any bias they happen to bring in the door with them. It's a truly random system and it works well for strengthening communication skills. However, that random nature really destroys any real sense of quantifiable competition and so often leads to the "suavest" teams walking away with the shiny.

Unless just maybe it's a competition of communication.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:58 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Not in all cases but very often, yes. You have alumni judges who vote on their debate theory biases (like me), parent judges who vote on their policy and/or value and/or emotional biases and community judges who vote on any bias they happen to bring in the door with them. It's a truly random system and it works well for strengthening communication skills. However, that random nature really destroys any real sense of quantifiable competition and so often leads to the "suavest" teams walking away with the shiny.

Unless just maybe it's a competition of communication.


Which is decided by people with any range of biases about the material being communicated/communication styles.

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Timothy

Drew wrote:
GumboSoup wrote:
Dads ftw.
Tim is your dad?

http://twitch.tv/dutchwaffles
Usually streaming around 8 PM EST weeknights and unpredictably on weekends. Come on by and say hi sometime!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:43 pm 
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Timbalistea wrote:
Hammy wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Not in all cases but very often, yes. You have alumni judges who vote on their debate theory biases (like me), parent judges who vote on their policy and/or value and/or emotional biases and community judges who vote on any bias they happen to bring in the door with them. It's a truly random system and it works well for strengthening communication skills. However, that random nature really destroys any real sense of quantifiable competition and so often leads to the "suavest" teams walking away with the shiny.

Unless just maybe it's a competition of communication.


Which is decided by people with any range of biases about the material being communicated/communication styles.

That negates nothing. So what? That's all part of communication.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:17 am 
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Hammy wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Hammy wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Not in all cases but very often, yes. You have alumni judges who vote on their debate theory biases (like me), parent judges who vote on their policy and/or value and/or emotional biases and community judges who vote on any bias they happen to bring in the door with them. It's a truly random system and it works well for strengthening communication skills. However, that random nature really destroys any real sense of quantifiable competition and so often leads to the "suavest" teams walking away with the shiny.

Unless just maybe it's a competition of communication.

Which is decided by people with any range of biases about the material being communicated/communication styles.

That negates nothing. So what? That's all part of communication.

Having been paid to judge the NFL I can say that the NCFCA experience is about as non-competitive as an adversarial activity can get. If the NFL is a duel between two knights with broadswords, the NCFCA is a backyard fight with pool noodles.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I know more than a few NFL kids that took it too far, mostly because the league they competed in doesn't tone down the competition - so in some ways, I think the NCFCA's model is a good thing.

P.S. if anyone ever offers to pay you to judge high school debate, you should take them up. They pay really well.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:45 am 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.


NCFCA is competitive.


Lawls.


You get shiny stuff if you do well. If you don't you get to judge juniors. But honestly debate is competition.
The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
The Invisible Hand wrote:
Timbalistea wrote:
Because that's exactly what a Christian, non-competitive speech and debate league needs to teach its kids. Screw grace, prepare to get slammed by the iron fist of the LAW.


NCFCA is competitive.


Lawls.


You get shiny stuff if you do well. If you don't you get to judge juniors. But honestly debate is competition.


Our God is a God of second chances. NCFCA gives no second chances. Our God is a God of mercy. NCFCA shows little mercy. Our God is a God of love. NCFCA facilitates hatred between competitors and unlovingly points the finger at those who trip over their "righteous rules". Our God tells us to respect the decisions of our brothers and sisters in Christ, NCFCA binds our consciences over disputable matters which do not relate to competition at all. Yes, NCFCA is competitive. But their breed of competition is a flawed one which I cannot recommend.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:01 am 
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mountain dude wrote:

Our God is a God of second chances. NCFCA gives no second chances. Our God is a God of mercy. NCFCA shows little mercy. Our God is a God of love. NCFCA facilitates hatred between competitors and unlovingly points the finger at those who trip over their "righteous rules". Our God tells us to respect the decisions of our brothers and sisters in Christ, NCFCA binds our consciences over disputable matters which do not relate to competition at all. Yes, NCFCA is competitive. But their breed of competition is a flawed one which I cannot recommend.


I believe NCFCA gives second chances. I've known people who have been disqualified from an event or even a whole tournament that have come back the next tournament. Our God is a God of mercy, but he is also a God of justice. That means that there our consequences for actions. Our God is a God of love, but as part of that he hates sin. He loves us so much that he is willing to punish us. That is why NCFCA has "righteous rules" it is to show the love of God. If they let you do whatever you want outside of round at a tournament that would be the real travesty. Actually when you decide to participate in NCFCA you agree to follow their rules. They are not binding you to them. You are binding yourself to them.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:28 am 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
mountain dude wrote:

Our God is a God of second chances. NCFCA gives no second chances. Our God is a God of mercy. NCFCA shows little mercy. Our God is a God of love. NCFCA facilitates hatred between competitors and unlovingly points the finger at those who trip over their "righteous rules". Our God tells us to respect the decisions of our brothers and sisters in Christ, NCFCA binds our consciences over disputable matters which do not relate to competition at all. Yes, NCFCA is competitive. But their breed of competition is a flawed one which I cannot recommend.


I believe NCFCA gives second chances. I've known people who have been disqualified from an event or even a whole tournament that have come back the next tournament. Our God is a God of mercy, but he is also a God of justice. That means that there our consequences for actions. Our God is a God of love, but as part of that he hates sin. He loves us so much that he is willing to punish us. That is why NCFCA has "righteous rules" it is to show the love of God. If they let you do whatever you want outside of round at a tournament that would be the real travesty. Actually when you decide to participate in NCFCA you agree to follow their rules. They are not binding you to them. You are binding yourself to them.


So, I had this whole snarky reply written up, then decided it probably shouldn't be said. I'll just say this instead:

"If they let you do whatever you want outside of round at a tournament that would be the real travesty." Umm.... I've been in totally secular competitions (with (gasp!) public school students) where they let you do literally anything outside of rounds, and no one does anything really wrong. Amazingly, freedom is actually a good thing. Who would have guessed? :roll:

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