homeschool debate | Forums Wiki

HomeSchoolDebate

Speech and Debate Resources and Community
Forums      Wiki
It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:01 pm
Not a member? Guests can only see part of the forums. To see the whole thing (and add your voice!), just register a free account by following these steps.

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 158 posts ]  Go to page Previous 13 4 5 6 7 8 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:58 am
Posts: 244
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: do I want you to know...?
It's a discussion worth having, despite the leaderships attempts to quench it.

_________________
Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 1267
Home Schooled: Yes
Perhaps.

I do find it interesting that when I started competing the only rules in ncfca were the dress code, and I only heard of 1 adjudication in my first four years (regarding legitimate questions about evidence in an outround at nats). With all the new rules that started coming out around '09 suddenly there is a need for all of these procedures to enforce minutia and people complaining about a lack of transparency. You could find old posts by me defending ncfca, but I will say that I preferred the old way.

Also, how old do I have to be before I'm not just a kid who needs to accept that adults know best? ;)

_________________
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, keep me here.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:58 am
Posts: 244
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: do I want you to know...?
It's not just the rules. It's their overreach, and their attempts to quench discussion which frustrate me the most. My friends and I were all but kicked out of the league for "gambling on tournament results" at regionals (a TP bracket competition with a bit of money involved). I was asked point blank by an NCFCA administrator to stop using social media to discuss my problems with NCFCA; those are just two of a dozen reasons I probably won't be in NCFCA next year. Overreach and their attempts to quench discussion make me very, very suspicious, and I'm sorry but I live in a country where I speak publicly and freely about my opinions, so I'm going to continue discussing this, because I think that perhaps it's a discussion worth having, based on the extent of my objection to the organization and the frankly inappropriate manner in which I've been reprimanded by the organization (my parents and pastor would echo that statement).

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
Also, how old do I have to be before I'm not just a kid who needs to accept that adults know best?


I'll accept that NCFCA knows best until, and ONLY until my parents or pastor begins to disagree.

Sorry for the short rant, but I've been wanting to say all of that for over a month. :P

_________________
Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 1267
Home Schooled: Yes
I can sympathize with your bracket issues. I used to joke around with friends about having a fantasy debate league (like fantasy football) although that never happened.

I also got some talks from regional leadership when I tried to predict round by round results/power matching/breaks the one year I didn't compete at regionals. For the record, I got 12 out of 16 right :P

I think the frustration with the league is more than understandable, but I do hope you find other ways to hone communication skills. For all its flaws, my life would be very different today without the skills I learned in ncfca.

_________________
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, keep me here.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:15 am 
Offline
I know not this "leverage" of which you speak.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:52 pm
Posts: 2286
Home Schooled: Yes
Quote:
Also, how old do I have to be before I'm not just a kid who needs to accept that adults know best?


Until your last grey hair falls out.

Unrelated two cents: if a genie flew out of a manilla envelope of ballots and gave me the power to change one policy in the NCFCA, it would be this: add a "No harm, no foul" standard for all adjudications. Even the National Football League, where millions of dollars hang in the balance, understands that if a rule violation causes no real harm, refs should have the option to call "no harm, no foul." It makes the game more enjoyable for everyone involved. e.g. Don't disqualify a new competitor who used a small binder instead of an apologetics box. The binder didn't have more cards than normal anyway.

This one simple rule could preclude so many petty, lightning-strike disqualifications.

_________________
This account doesn't express the opinions of my employers and might not even express my own.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 1267
Home Schooled: Yes
I could get behind that change.

I'm biased towards extemp, but if I could change 1 thing I would eliminate all extemp rules except 30 minutes of prep time and 7 minutes of speaking time. Everything else is a barrier that scares people away from limited preps, makes the activity less fun, and puts way more emphasis on winning than learning analysis/speaking skills.

Don't even get me started on debate rule changes haha. I'm willing to sacrifice platforms and interps to the rule czars because who really cares ;)

_________________
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, keep me here.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:01 am
Posts: 652
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Flying a UFO to an undisclosed location ;)
I would be interested in seeing how many adjudications actually result in disqualifications. There have been several instances of disqualification, but not every instance of adjudication has that result.
Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
I can sympathize with your bracket issues. I used to joke around with friends about having a fantasy debate league (like fantasy football) although that never happened.
I also got some talks from regional leadership when I tried to predict round by round results/power matching/breaks the one year I didn't compete at regionals. For the record, I got 12 out of 16 right :P
I predicted tournament champion, 3 of the 4 semifinals teams, and 16/16 on breaks at a qualifier this year before the tournament started :D. Brackets are fun and people love to speculate. As long as you don't take it too far and make it a big issue it can be fun. I would say that making monetary wagers is taking it a bit to far and the NCFCA had a duty to nip it in the bud, though I don't support throwing competitors out of the league for such an action.
Mr Glasses wrote:
if a genie flew out of a manilla envelope of ballots and gave me the power to change one policy in the NCFCA, it would be this: add a "No harm, no foul" standard for all adjudications. Even the National Football League, where millions of dollars hang in the balance, understands that if a rule violation causes no real harm, refs should have the option to call "no harm, no foul."
I would support the idea, though you also have to determine if there was foul intent. Correction, I would support giving the students a chance to atone for the mistake (eg. forgot to label a computer in the extemp room), but they would still suffer consequences if they failed to fix it.

_________________
John Mark Porter, Alumni
Arx Axiom/Carpe Dictum/Verdict/UADC/HSDC/HSDRC

2011-12 l Porter/Thomason, Light/Porter
2012-13 l Bailey/Porter
2013-14 l Bailey/Porter
2014-15 l Folkert/Porter

2015-16 I Childs/Porter


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:58 am
Posts: 244
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: do I want you to know...?
JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
I would say that making monetary wagers is taking it a bit to far and the NCFCA had a duty to nip it in the bud, though I don't support throwing competitors out of the league for such an action.


I'd have to disagree, honestly. NCFCA is a regulated system, which means that jurisdiction ends where regulation ends.

The punishment is that we have to have two chaperones on campus for the next tournament (one to judge, one to be with us 24/7), which is very nigh impossible for most of us, so it's basically throwing us out of the league. They also required that we email to them a receipt of a donation to the Institute for Christian Conciliation.

_________________
Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 1267
Home Schooled: Yes
That's pretty bad

Like I said, hope you are able to find a solution. I know I would be pretty hot under the collar in your situation.

_________________
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, keep me here.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 3:24 am
Posts: 769
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Alabama
mountain dude wrote:
JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
I would say that making monetary wagers is taking it a bit to far and the NCFCA had a duty to nip it in the bud, though I don't support throwing competitors out of the league for such an action.


I'd have to disagree, honestly. NCFCA is a regulated system, which means that jurisdiction ends where regulation ends.

The punishment is that we have to have two chaperones on campus for the next tournament (one to judge, one to be with us 24/7), which is very nigh impossible for most of us, so it's basically throwing us out of the league. They also required that we email to them a receipt of a donation to the Institute for Christian Conciliation.


That's really interesting. I've actually heard of them handing out similar punishments to people before, but I thought that it was just a one-time thing. I didn't think that they had made it a policy to punish people by forcing 24/7 supervision by a second chaperone.

John Mark wrote:
I would be interested in seeing how many adjudications actually result in disqualifications. There have been several instances of disqualification, but not every instance of adjudication has that result.


If you mean disqualification as in getting kicked out of the tournament/league, that doesn't happen often, but people are commonly dropped to their bottom of their rooms for minor violations. A ton of people had that happen to them at the NC Open this year for not labeling their computers.

_________________
- Brennan Herring (Team Policy Coach, Catalyst Speech and Debate)

Ethos is also pretty cool, you should check it out.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 2441
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Omaha, NE
mountain dude wrote:
It's not just the rules. It's their overreach, and their attempts to quench discussion which frustrate me the most. My friends and I were all but kicked out of the league for "gambling on tournament results" at regionals (a TP bracket competition with a bit of money involved). I was asked point blank by an NCFCA administrator to stop using social media to discuss my problems with NCFCA; those are just two of a dozen reasons I probably won't be in NCFCA next year. Overreach and their attempts to quench discussion make me very, very suspicious, and I'm sorry but I live in a country where I speak publicly and freely about my opinions, so I'm going to continue discussing this, because I think that perhaps it's a discussion worth having, based on the extent of my objection to the organization and the frankly inappropriate manner in which I've been reprimanded by the organization (my parents and pastor would echo that statement).

I heard about that. I find that bizarre...it isn't against the rules, not illegal in Nebraska, and frankly is none of their business. They would probably have a stroke if they new about the NFA tournament where coaches/judges were betting on the outcome of outrounds they didn't judge. I think I cost some people money that tournament...

_________________
-Bryan
Co-Founder of Olympus Forensics

Google it, we're the second link that pops up. We're pretty proud of that.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:58 am
Posts: 244
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: do I want you to know...?
Especially when the amount of money involved was the grand total of $33 (3 bucks per person with 11 entries). There is no merit for punishment, and little merit for prohibition either. #Bracketgate

_________________
Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:00 pm 
Offline
Guardian of the Black Room
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:05 am
Posts: 877
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: 127.0.0.1
I think that what people do with their money is their business. Would I gamble on outcomes of NCFCA matches? Nope, but it sure would be cool to watch. Whenever a society or culture adopts strict rules, people develop creative ways to sidestep them or just jump ship. Permissiveness is necessary for learning. My kids (thinking probably 20 years in the future) will most likely participate in whatever league is more "open" and less legalistic. If NCFCA changes by then, great; otherwise, we'll probably be doing Stoa (or possibly a new league that doesn't yet exist).

Important questions for NCFCA to consider: What harm (physical, legal, moral, reputational (is that a word?)) comes to NCFCA or its members by allowing such activity to continue? I understand that the leadership may not think it is right for people to do X, but if participants are doing X outside of their activities in the league, why step in? Rulings like this (and especially the requests to stop using social media to discuss problems with NCFCA) are just one step in the direction of throwing people out of the league for totally unrelated behavior or activities.

EDIT: Again, I'll reiterate that I understand the leadership of NCFCA has a right to do as they see fit with their league. Participants are guests of that league, etc., etc. This is not an indictment on the persons in leadership, but rather a question of how they're leading.

_________________
"The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits"
- G.K. Chesterton


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:55 am
Posts: 211
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: VA
mountain dude wrote:
Especially when the amount of money involved was the grand total of $33 (3 bucks per person with 11 entries). There is no merit for punishment, and little merit for prohibition either. #Bracketgate


Mountain Dude...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you're leaving out a key element and missing a big point.

First of all, as a disclaimer, I feel the actions taken by the NCFCA leadership in response to this crisis were too extreme for the crime. Seeing as there is no official rule on gambling in the NCFCA, and not all Christians believe gambling to be morally impermissible, I think that exacting punishment on those involved (especially to the extent that they did) was wrong.

Second disclaimer, I don't live in Region V. I did have a discussion (at length) with a wonderful Region V debater, though. She gave me lots of information and also opposed to the punishment.

But as I thought about it, I realized something critical.

You all are competitors.

In the 1919 Baseball World Series, the infamous "Black Sox" (the nickname for a particular team of White Sox) players, largely favored to win the World Series, bet on themselves to lose the series. They then proceeded to bomb the series on purpose because the rewards of the gambling were greater than those of winning the games.

Unlike the NCFCA, MLB (Major League Baseball) had/has a rule against players, coaches, etc. gambling on the results of games, and the players were banned from the MLB forever.

All competition is a search for the best. In debate, we search for the best ideas, or the truth. In this effort, we must try to minimize roadblocks to that goal. Similarly, the NCFCA, in its goal to become an increasingly reputable organization, must ensure that its competitive results are of the utmost integrity.

Do I think anyone purposely lost to win $33? No. I don't. Do I think $33 is a big deal? No. Do I think gambling is inherently wrong? No. Do I think the NCFCA leadership was correct in how they handled the situation? No. From what I know, I do not.

But the NCFCA, and we as debaters, really need to think about this activity (gambling) and the effects it has on our performance, or could potentially have if it was of greater magnitude.

So while I don't agree with how NCFCA handled it, I do think they're correct to shut down that kind of activity. But I'd love to hear if any of you have thoughts otherwise. :)

_________________
NCFCA Region IX (FASD)

Reagan Bass/Justin Moffatt '12-'16


Retired.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:01 am
Posts: 652
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Flying a UFO to an undisclosed location ;)
Basically what Justin said above. I think the punishment was extreme.
Taken from my economics teacher from a few years back,
Mr. Rucker wrote:
The lottery/gambling is a tax on stupid people.
From the perspective I'm at (a fellow competitor who had nothing to gain or lose) I don't have a problem with people gambling (it's their money, let them do as they wish with it). But this can be a big issue for the NCFCA as an organization. For one, how can it explain to parents that it learned that students were gambling in the premises and the staff did nothing(I remember my first year a bunch of students started playing a poker game and the staff confiscated it)? Take this analogy:

I go to a party with 20 other people at one of their parent's houses (let's assume we are all 21 and can legally consume alcohol), the homeowner could still have the right to prevent/punish us because it's their property and they think it's the wrong thing to do and they can be held responsible if we do something stupid.

I don't have the time to tailor this analogy any more, but you get the picture. The NCFCA should be able to do what it did, though I regret that it went as far as it did.

The NCFCA doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, compliant with stupidity (I'm sorry about the strong language, I'm just going with my Economist teacher :D ).

_________________
John Mark Porter, Alumni
Arx Axiom/Carpe Dictum/Verdict/UADC/HSDC/HSDRC

2011-12 l Porter/Thomason, Light/Porter
2012-13 l Bailey/Porter
2013-14 l Bailey/Porter
2014-15 l Folkert/Porter

2015-16 I Childs/Porter


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 1267
Home Schooled: Yes
Unless people are betting against themselves and throwing rounds, there is exactly 0 similarity to the black sox. It's more like Pete Rose who should totally be in the hall of fame ;)

Besides that, ncfca leadership loves to talk about how the goal is communication skills not winning. so assuming everyone is still learning how to communicate there is no problem.

MLB is different as it relies on revenues from viewers to generate profit. If viewers believe matches are fixed they won't watch and the league will go under. there are no such concerns for ncfca.

_________________
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, keep me here.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 1267
Home Schooled: Yes
Of course ncfca can do what they did. The question is whether or not they should have. Shutting down things like bracket pools, poker games, or other harmless activities makes little sense if the organization's goal is truly to train intelligent communicators.

If however the league want to create an environment of legalism, well....

_________________
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, keep me here.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 3:24 am
Posts: 769
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Alabama
What bothers me about it the most is that its so arbitrary. Want to outlaw gambling on outrounds and establish clear consequences for it? Then do that. Want to outlaw other kinds of questionable behavior? Then make it clear what that behavior is. At this point, it just seems to be that whatever behavior Mrs. Hudson feels is unacceptable is open to harsh punishments. If you're going to have rules like that, I feel like they need to be pretty clear and explicit. (Not to bash Mrs. Hudson, just to be clear. Just bashing arbitrary rules.)

_________________
- Brennan Herring (Team Policy Coach, Catalyst Speech and Debate)

Ethos is also pretty cool, you should check it out.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:58 am
Posts: 244
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: do I want you to know...?
@justin The winner of the bracket pool won because he picked himself to win TP. Your analogy doesn't work.

@JMP the host of the party can say "don't do this again" but they should not have jurisdiction to hand out punishment. Once regulation is in place, fine. Other than that, jurisdiction ends where regulation ends.

_________________
Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:55 am
Posts: 211
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: VA
mountain dude wrote:
@justin The winner of the bracket pool won because he picked himself to win TP. Your analogy doesn't work.


I'm sorry... but I fail to see how this invalidates my point.

It's a practice that, if allowed in greater magnitude, could jeopardize the integrity of the league. I don't think anyone tanked a round for $33, but the fact that, in this instance, the results weren't compromised is irrelevant. It's competitors gambling on the results of their own debates, and it must be shut down.

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
Unless people are betting against themselves and throwing rounds, there is exactly 0 similarity to the black sox. It's more like Pete Rose who should totally be in the hall of fame ;)


See above ^. But you're right about Pete Rose. :P

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
Besides that, ncfca leadership loves to talk about how the goal is communication skills not winning. so assuming everyone is still learning how to communicate there is no problem.

MLB is different as it relies on revenues from viewers to generate profit. If viewers believe matches are fixed they won't watch and the league will go under. there are no such concerns for ncfca.


That's not fair to the NCFCA. Sure, they acknowledge that winning isn't the ultimate goal. But they do take their competition seriously... and many of the schools they have scholarship agreements with trust them to provide a fair competitive environment.


Edit: I do want to reiterate that I disagree with the NCFCA's adjudication in this specific instance. I just also disagree with the sentiment that it's not a big deal.

_________________
NCFCA Region IX (FASD)

Reagan Bass/Justin Moffatt '12-'16


Retired.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 158 posts ]  Go to page Previous 13 4 5 6 7 8 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited