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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:46 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
The same can definitely not be said for a bracket pool. There was no rule against it, and if it isn't something that goes against principles in the Bible, then there is no offense which merits no punishment.

I would argue that it's a perfectly common sense rule that competitors in competitions don't cast bets on what they're competing in. It would even violate Biblical principles because you aren't treating the people you compete against fairly. You put them in a precarious position because of your bets, which isn't right.

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
Unless you're worried about mafia syndicates in ncfca I think comparisons to professional competitions are off target ;)

Actually, I've heard stories of people in the audience trying to distract debaters that they don't want to win. ;) Also, a friend of mine got her case stolen at one tournament. It never showed up.

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
No one outside of the bracket pool would lose money if a round is thrown.

Which is why it's imperative that the competitors do not cast the bets.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:49 pm 
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Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
And I would be willing to wager that many people posting on hsd about frustrations have first-hand experience with the unwillingness of the league to change. It's naive to pretend that we are somehow reducing the likelihood of meaningful change by talking about things on a message board.

Whoops, missed this. Actually, the leadership of NCFCA does read what we post here, and that's most likely why Mrs. Hudson dislikes HSD. Because of offensive talk about the league. I'm certain that the leadership is fine with constructive talk, but not festering insults, which does happen quite infrequently here. We just have to be careful.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:40 pm 
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Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
There is no penalty for throwing a round to help a friend qualify for regionals/nationals.


Actually, at Regionals in 2014, a guy from our region was disqualified for throwing an octas round to qualify his friend to Nats. What's funny is that he still won the round, even with throwing it, but because they disqualified him, his friend was able to qualify.

The justification was that he wasn't performing his best, which is against the mission statement or debate ethics guidelines or something. So, he could have just forfeited the round and that would have been fine, but debating below his ability wasn't acceptable.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
Unless you're worried about mafia syndicates in ncfca I think comparisons to professional competitions are off target ;).

I'm pretty sure some NCFCA participants are already heavily involved in mafia. buh-bum tssk.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:01 pm 
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Quote:
I would argue that it's a perfectly common sense rule that competitors in competitions don't cast bets on what they're competing in. It would even violate Biblical principles because you aren't treating the people you compete against fairly. You put them in a precarious position because of your bets, which isn't right.


That's cool that you don't feel comfortable betting on your competitions, but it is a huge stretch to make that a blanket statement. Betting does not give any competitor an advantage. If there is a lot of money at stake - NFL, MLB, NBA - there can be a problem with betting if it is not managed properly. But in the context of NCFCA it is no worse than two businessmen betting on a golf game at the country club. People have friendly bets like that all the time.

Quote:
Actually, I've heard stories of people in the audience trying to distract debaters that they don't want to win. ;) Also, a friend of mine got her case stolen at one tournament. It never showed up.


Totally different. I know that people try to distract debaters in rounds and I think those people should be dealt with because unlike betting that can actually effect the outcome of a round. That has nothing to do with my statement about organized criminal syndicates using betting and match fixing to launder money ;)

Quote:
Actually, the leadership of NCFCA does read what we post here, and that's most likely why Mrs. Hudson dislikes HSD. Because of offensive talk about the league. I'm certain that the leadership is fine with constructive talk, but not festering insults, which does happen quite infrequently here. We just have to be careful.


Oh trust me, I'm aware that Mrs. Teresa reads HSD :P . But it is naive to think that leadership would be more open to change if people stopped complaining on HSD/social media. NCFCA is not and has never been a democracy. Policies are going to be made the same regardless of what happens on HSD.

Quote:
Actually, at Regionals in 2014, a guy from our region was disqualified for throwing an octas round to qualify his friend to Nats. What's funny is that he still won the round, even with throwing it, but because they disqualified him, his friend was able to qualify.

The justification was that he wasn't performing his best, which is against the mission statement or debate ethics guidelines or something. So, he could have just forfeited the round and that would have been fine, but debating below his ability wasn't acceptable.


So, the penalty for trying to help his friend qualify was that his friend actually qualified? :P . Only in NCFCA would that make sense :lol: . That is a new development, but its enforcement makes even less sense than kicking people out for betting.

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I'm pretty sure some NCFCA participants are already heavily involved in mafia. buh-bum tssk.


I realized that as I was typing :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:49 am 
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@Hammy I don't know that "putting them in a precarious position" goes against Biblical principles. Read Romans 14. We're dealing with a trivial difference in opinion, which is something personal, just like the choice of whether or not to drink alcohol. This is between God and the believer, not between NCFCA and the believer.

I am also operating in the full knowledge that the NCFCA board may be reading every word I say. Maybe they will disqualify what I say because they disapprove of how I say it. Or maybe they will remember the profanity and arrogance of Martin Luther and remember that, even if you think somebody is a pill, you should still listen to him, as the Catholic Church should have listened to Luther. He might just be right. (sorry Catholics :P) I am trying my best to not be a pill about this, but rather present the information objectively and give my opinions separately and respectfully. ;) I don't think there's anything wrong or disrespectful about that-I think respect sometimes involves sharing your opinions, which aren't always positive, with the league and with others.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:24 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
@Hammy I don't know that "putting them in a precarious position" goes against Biblical principles. Read Romans 14. We're dealing with a trivial difference in opinion, which is something personal, just like the choice of whether or not to drink alcohol. This is between God and the believer, not between NCFCA and the believer.

Careful sir, I'm not talking about whether or not gambling is a sin, I'm simply referring to gambling amongst competitors in a competition. It isn't an issue of personal convictions, this is outright against the common sense notions of competition.

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
Betting does not give any competitor an advantage. If there is a lot of money at stake - NFL, MLB, NBA - there can be a problem with betting if it is not managed properly

And NCFCA doesn't want to traverse down that road in any way.

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
But in the context of NCFCA it is no worse than two businessmen betting on a golf game at the country club. People have friendly bets like that all the time.

This is true, but even so, NCFCA competition is of a higher level of importance than a friendly game of golf. Students prepare for an entire year (give or take) prior to tournaments. They pour themselves into what is a serious competition. The existence of betting amongst students only encourages the wrong incentives and lowers the standards of accountability.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:30 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
mountain dude wrote:
@Hammy I don't know that "putting them in a precarious position" goes against Biblical principles. Read Romans 14. We're dealing with a trivial difference in opinion, which is something personal, just like the choice of whether or not to drink alcohol. This is between God and the believer, not between NCFCA and the believer.

Careful sir, I'm not talking about whether or not gambling is a sin, I'm simply referring to gambling amongst competitors in a competition. It isn't an issue of personal convictions, this is outright against the common sense notions of competition.

Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
But in the context of NCFCA it is no worse than two businessmen betting on a golf game at the country club. People have friendly bets like that all the time.

This is true, but even so, NCFCA competition is of a higher level of importance than a friendly game of golf. Students prepare for an entire year (give or take) prior to tournaments. They pour themselves into what is a serious competition. The existence of betting amongst students only encourages the wrong incentives and lowers the standards of accountability.

I think the NCFCA is/should be more akin to a friendly game of golf than a serious competition - NFL, MLB, etc.

After all, it's not about the awards - right? It's about what you learn in preparation for the tournament.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:08 pm 
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Sharkfin wrote:
After all, it's not about the awards - right? It's about what you learn in preparation for the tournament.

But at the same time it teaches us to maintain a respectable level of professionalism.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
Sharkfin wrote:
After all, it's not about the awards - right? It's about what you learn in preparation for the tournament.

But at the same time it teaches us to maintain a respectable level of professionalism.

There's a fine line between being a stick in the mud and being professional, and I think the NCFCA and homeschoolers in general have a tendency to err on the side of being a stick in the mud.

Friendly competitions and a buck or two here and there in an office betting pool aren't uncommon or unusual, even in the most formal of offices.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:53 pm 
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Professionals bet all the time. offices have March madness pools. it's fine if you don't want to bet. But it is far from common sense to apply rules from professional athletic associations to a competitive but amateur communications activity with no monetary prizes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:54 pm 
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I fail to see the problems with betting on a competition which you're in as long as there is an understanding among the people in the bet of what is honorable and what is not. You should place your bet on what you think will happen, and leave it at that. So long as that honor code is in place, there should be no issues. It's just a friendly wager on the outcome of an event that, yes, you might be competing in. I still fail to see how that element is "against the common sense notions of competition."

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:12 pm 
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Betting on something you are participating is completely different than betting on March madness. Just to clarify.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:23 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
I fail to see the problems with betting on a competition which you're in as long as there is an understanding among the people in the bet of what is honorable and what is not. You should place your bet on what you think will happen, and leave it at that. So long as that honor code is in place, there should be no issues. It's just a friendly wager on the outcome of an event that, yes, you might be competing in. I still fail to see how that element is "against the common sense notions of competition."

^^ This.

If NCFCA's standards of behavior are so strict, one shouldn't ever have to worry about people throwing matches to make a buck. Only when people's character is in question do you need to worry about people throwing matches.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:51 pm 
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On a totally unrelated note, does this mean we need an hsd bracket pool for nats next year? ;)

Kiddding....










Probably :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:08 pm 
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Except no current competitors would participate because they could get their slots taken from them. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:59 pm 
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_TakenUsername_ wrote:
Except no current competitors would participate because they could get their slots taken from them. :P


Even though it's not mentioned anywhere in the rules?

*sigh* This is the definition of arbitrary rule.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:11 pm 
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_TakenUsername_ wrote:
Except no current competitors would participate because they could get their slots taken from them. :P


Just for clarification, I don't believe any competitors lost their slots when this happened. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:05 pm 
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JustM.e wrote:
_TakenUsername_ wrote:
Except no current competitors would participate because they could get their slots taken from them. :P


Just for clarification, I don't believe any competitors lost their slots when this happened. :P


I talked to a friend of mine who used to compete in region 5 and still has a lot of friends there, and he said that some people almost got their slots taken away. I severely doubt that Mrs. Hudson would just let it slide if an HSD bracket pool started, given how she reacted to the region 5 incident. (Jonathan, please correct me if I'm wrong on how it went down in region 5, you would obviously know better than me.)

Either way, I certainly wouldn't participate if in it if I were competing next year. Because there is no written rules with corresponding consequences, there would be no way of knowing whether you would get your nats slots taken away for participating in the bracket or not.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:49 am 
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As I understand it, no one gambling was still in the outrounds and, if they were, were not gambling on their own rounds.

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