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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:15 pm 
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Dibbles wrote:
Even if you believe the NCFCA leadership should be respected, that doesn't mean there's not room for improvement. If you need a Biblical basis for justified disrespect, read Daniel 3: 14-18. Not a perfect analogy of course, but it works. :P

A little while ago NCFCA issued the rule/suggestion (not sure what it was supposed to be) that students should no longer pray in front of judges so as to not waste the judge's time. Due to the fact (at least in our region) the judge is almost always in the room before the competitors in Prelim rounds many teams stopped praying before their rounds. Four years ago when NCFCA announced this I made the determination that I would not follow this edict from NCFCA based on my Biblical right to not follow authority when they threaten to encroach on my faith in God. I still hold a high regard of respect for NCFCA because I know that they had no ill-intention when they made this statement. Don't confuse respect with disagreement.

Dibbles wrote:
From what I hear now and had experienced when my siblings and I competed in NCFCA, NCFCA is basically using Authoritarian leadership, making sure kids have strict adherence to the rules. By doing that, they're actually shooting themselves in the foot, which is why you get speeches like Riaz and others.

This is all super subjective and as a five year competitor in NCFCA I couldn't disagree with you more.

Dibbles wrote:
Because Stoa's primarily democratic, we take responsibility for the rules. Because we put the people in place who set up the rules, we tend to want to follow them (which is also why riots to overthrow the government happen less in democratic countries than in dictatorships).

I don't feel that children should govern NCFCA. The vast majority of competitors are immature and shortsighted in comparison to adults and would quickly tank the league of much of the educational benefit. Kids are kids, don't forget that. (I would contend that Stoa is starting to see this with several of the events that they host, but that's a topic for a different thread)

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:28 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
A little while ago NCFCA issued the rule/suggestion (not sure what it was supposed to be) that students should no longer pray in front of judges so as to not waste the judge's time. Due to the fact (at least in our region) the judge is almost always in the room before the competitors in Prelim rounds many teams stopped praying before their rounds. Four years ago when NCFCA announced this I made the determination that I would not follow this edict from NCFCA based on my Biblical right to not follow authority when they threaten to encroach on my faith in God. I still hold a high regard of respect for NCFCA because I know that they had no ill-intention when they made this statement. Don't confuse respect with disagreement.


Yes, respect and disagreement are certainly different. I should've used a different word, I apologize. I respect the NCFCA as well, but I disagree with them on multiple levels. I don't believe anyone here who is speaking out truly feels the need to disrespect them, but rather to ask for change. That may come off as disrespect, as your rebellion against the prayer rule (which is an awful rule, btw, why the heck did someone think that was a good idea to implement?) could come off as disrespect to their authority as well. Their intentions may be good, but we can still strongly disagree with how those intentions are being carried out and misconstrued.

Dibbles wrote:
From what I hear now and had experienced when my siblings and I competed in NCFCA, NCFCA is basically using Authoritarian leadership, making sure kids have strict adherence to the rules. By doing that, they're actually shooting themselves in the foot, which is why you get speeches like Riaz and others.

Hammy wrote:
This is all super subjective and as a five year competitor in NCFCA I couldn't disagree with you more.

Subjective how exactly?

Dibbles wrote:
Because Stoa's primarily democratic, we take responsibility for the rules. Because we put the people in place who set up the rules, we tend to want to follow them (which is also why riots to overthrow the government happen less in democratic countries than in dictatorships).

Hammy wrote:
I don't feel that children should govern NCFCA. The vast majority of competitors are immature and shortsighted in comparison to adults and would quickly tank the league of much of the educational benefit because kids are kids. (I would contend that Stoa is starting to see this with several of the events that they host, but that's a topic for a different thread)

Kids aren't exactly governing Stoa, lol. That's not how it works. We have elections for the leadership that makes the decisions about rules, and some changes are put up to a general vote. The loss of impromptu was an unfortunate result, yes, which is why I think Stoa needs a 2/3 majority for those sorts of votes, but yes, discussion for a different thread. The fact is, the element of democracy that we do have leads to better adherence to the rules regardless.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Stoa dosen't have impromptu!?!? :o :o :cry:

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:58 pm 
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Dibbles wrote:
I don't believe anyone here who is speaking out truly feels the need to disrespect them, but rather to ask for change.

Well except for Shayne.... :P But no, I totally understand what you're saying I just don't think that NCFCA needs the change that people are suggesting.

Dibbles wrote:
Subjective how exactly?

Meaning that in the psychological studies that you were referencing there's a fine line between what is too much punishment and what is acceptable before you start shooting yourself in the foot. While NCFCA does have an authoritative rule (something that I am thankful for) I do not believe that their punishments are excessive. It may feel or come across as excessive to the stressed out student who really meant no offense to rules. What if in the example that you were talking about the evidence with the mistaken credentials played into the ballot that gave the team a win? Is that fair to you? Absolutely not. Is giving you the win instead of the other team a fair outcome because he misrepresented the evidence? Absolutely. Regardless of whether or not it was intentional it would have given him an unlawful advantage over the lawful team. Same case for getting dropped to the bottom of a speech room. It's perfectly reasonable when you think it through, it just seems harsh when that round keeps you out of Regionals or Nationals. (that just happened to me at Regionals last week)

Dibbles wrote:
Kids aren't exactly governing Stoa, lol. That's not how it works. We have elections for the leadership that makes the decisions about rules, and some changes are put up to a general vote. The loss of impromptu was an unfortunate result, yes, which is why I think Stoa needs a 2/3 majority for those sorts of votes, but yes, discussion for a different thread.

And Stoa also isn't totally lost from education. :P

Dibbles wrote:
The fact is, the element of democracy that we do have leads to better adherence to the rules regardless.

I feel like that's a hasty generalization. I don't think that it can be shown that Stoa has fewer rule violations than NCFCA. Fewer adjudications, certainly, because we would hold a stricter enforcement of the rules, but no violations.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:59 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
Dibbles wrote:
Even if you believe the NCFCA leadership should be respected, that doesn't mean there's not room for improvement. If you need a Biblical basis for justified disrespect, read Daniel 3: 14-18. Not a perfect analogy of course, but it works. :P

A little while ago NCFCA issued the rule/suggestion (not sure what it was supposed to be) that students should no longer pray in front of judges so as to not waste the judge's time. Due to the fact (at least in our region) the judge is almost always in the room before the competitors in Prelim rounds many teams stopped praying before their rounds. Four years ago when NCFCA announced this I made the determination that I would not follow this edict from NCFCA based on my Biblical right to not follow authority when they threaten to encroach on my faith in God. I still hold a high regard of respect for NCFCA because I know that they had no ill-intention when they made this statement. Don't confuse respect with disagreement.


Even if you don't agree with NCFCA's leadership, you are still called to respect them.
Romans 13:1-7 wrote:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 5:34 pm 
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I've been following this thread from the beginning and choosing to stay out of it, but I'm a debater and can't keep myself from giving my two cents anymore.

I am now in my second year of competition in the NCFCA. I absolutely love this league and this competition and can't imagine my high school career without it. In my experience, regional and national leadership has always seemed to handle violations and adjudications very well. That being said, I'm not claiming that they are perfect. I'm not discounting the stories I've heard from others on this thread, and I recognize that mistakes have certainly been made over the years.

As an LD'er, I've been debating about fairness all year, and that's the root issue we have on this thread. What constitutes fair punishment? What is too strict? Where should the line be drawn? This is a good question, and worthy of discussion. To some extent, it is subjective; this is clearly evidenced by the existence of this thread in the first place! But it is something to be discussed. I think we should continue to explore that area. But first, we need to be clear on what it means to respect the leadership.

The Bible makes it clear that we are to respect those in authority, even when we disagree with them. Respect and submission are essential, but not always easy. At the same time, however, we are also told that we should value God's laws above man's laws. This is really the only "exception" to the submission rule that the Bible gives. We also need to recognize that the leadership is human. They make mistakes. That can't be changed. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek the best decisions possible for the benefit of the league and the competitors.

I think the biggest thing we need to establish is this: we are here to discuss problems with the system, NOT with the leadership. We are here to consider alternative decisions, NOT alternative leaders. The question at hand is whether we have a good system, not whether we have good leaders. The leaders of the NCFCA are sacrificially giving of their time for our benefit, and are doing an incredible job for the most part. We should respect their authority and their decisions, and be thankful for what they do for us. But there is nothing wrong with having a civilized discussion about the system, and what constitutes a good governance of the league.

So from here on out, let's make this thread not about whether the leaders are good or worthy of respect, but rather about whether the current system for things like adjudications is the best it can be. Let's agree to respect the leaders, and from their we can debate about the various systems that could be implemented. There's nothing wrong with throwing around ideas and discussing potential problems; just remember the One we're representing, and behave in a way that reflects His heart for this league.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:57 pm 
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Dibbles wrote:
Wow, even after all these years since California left the NCFCA, not a whole lot seems to have changed. I understand why you all feel the need to respect the leadership, I know they try their best, but there are better ways to handle things than what they seem to be doing.

It's a long-proven psychological fact that if you are an Authoritarian parent imposing strict rules and harsh punishments, it actually increases the child's likelihood of rebellion exponentially. From what I hear now and had experienced when my siblings and I competed in NCFCA, NCFCA is basically using Authoritarian leadership, making sure kids have strict adherence to the rules. By doing that, they're actually shooting themselves in the foot, which is why you get speeches like Riaz and others.


A governing system that has rules and enforces them =/= an overly strict parent. Most of NCFCA's rules are perfectly reasonable (except maybe the one where you can't have computer charge cords in the extemp prep room, lol), and there really isn't a reason to not enforce them. If not enforced, people lose respect in the rules and believe that they no longer matter. Case in point: A lot of people have mentioned how they got dropped to the bottoms of their rooms for not labeling their computers in the prep room. The reason that happened is because last year (the first year we had electronic extemp), that rule was barely ever enforced. Having rules is pointless if they aren't enforced.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:33 pm 
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Okay, this is gonna be long. I have lots of thoughts on this.

First off, here's a big difference between respecting the authority and agreeing with the authority. Respect and submission are one and the same. Respect and agreement are not. The Bible makes it clear (give to Caesar what is Caesar's) that we need to pay our dues to the authorities. NCFCA is due my respect for their authority and their decisions, but it does not deserve, and should not have, my complete and total affirmation of everything it does. The only thing that I will give my undivided affirmation of is Christ and His word. That is beyond question, but anything other than that is fallible.

I'm not disputing that they're worthy of my respect as leaders and authorities over this organization, but we do have different definitions of respect. We are not called to admire and praise the leadership, we are called to follow their rules and submit to their decisions. Like I said at first, it is not disrespectful to the authority of an incumbent president to support his challenger (@Hammy I know this is a government analogy but that doesn't discredit it). I think this is the same thing.

BenVincent wrote:
I think the biggest thing we need to establish is this: we are here to discuss problems with the system, NOT with the leadership.


I mostly agree with this, but you have to realize that in many (though not all) instances the problems with the system find their source in problems with the leadership.

Hammy wrote:
I mean no disrespect here, but If you really feel this way then go find another speech and debate organization because NCFCA is very much about learning to follow rules. Our mission statement refers to addressing life's issues in a manner that glorifies God. Let's see some Biblical support for not following rules or showing that we are glorifying God by not following the rules.


The Bible has a lot to say on this subject. As in many situations, it deals with it on a more severe level, so when you read these passages, keep in mind that I don't think NCFCA is like the Pharisees or wicked people. I just think they have the same problems as discussed in the passages on a lesser level, but they are the same problems so this is applicable.

Matthew 23 (particularly, verse 4)
Luke 11:46 (same story as above, different gospel)
Colossians 2:20-23 (this one is particularly applicable)
Romans 14 (mainly verse 1, but I love this chapter so I couldn't help but put the whole thing)

Hammy wrote:
If I may point out this happened to a Duo team this past year in our region. It isn't an isolated ruling.


I know. I can accept the ruling at this point but I'm still a bit frustrated with the rules, because the way the rule is worded it's kinda ambiguous...it could go either way. I'm more frustrated with the rules because I don't think it should be prohibited to do more than one story per non-thematic interp...but rules are rules so I'll give them this one.

Hammy wrote:
We aren't dealing with people's lives. Extreme would be kicking a person out of a tournament for citing something incorrectly. Getting dropped to the bottom of a room is a perfectly just and fair punishment. You cheated and are removed from competition in the round(s) that you competed in because it is unfair to others who were following the rules. As Simon said, dropping you a few ranks would be suggesting that it is ok to cheat. Kind of like if you bring script into a room, it isn't against the rules (except at Nats) and only costs you one rank.


Actually, as I previously stated, there was an instance where one of my friends got kicked out of all 5 of his speeches because he incorrectly cited a youtube URL.

Most of the time, it is for something that was just an honest mistake that any competitor could have made. To punish you for maliciously and purposefully breaking the rules is fine, but for missing one little detail? That's unreasonable. I think sometimes dropping you to the bottom of the room is appropriate, like if you have some lines in an interp that aren't from the literature, because that's clearly prohibited. But if it's an error from a small, ambiguous rule, then it shouldn't be that severe. NCFCA is about communication, it's not about teaching you to follow rules. Cheating your way up in the competition is obviously unacceptable, but when the rule is clearly ambiguous and when there is a reasonable second interpretation then it should definitely not result in dropping somebody to the bottom of the room. Cheating is about two things: 1) UNFAIR ADVANTAGE (if you take an asprin before a sports event it won't help you, and it's not cheating, even if you THINK it's really performance enhancing drugs) and 2) INTENTION (if the Pats had not purposefully deflated the game balls and the balls were, say, deflating because they weren't made for the weather conditions, that's not cheating because they had no intention to use balls with less pressure, so then Brady wouldn't have been suspended for 4 games). One uncited fact gives you no unfair advantage, and almost all of the time it was totally inadvertent, and definitely NOT done to try to gain an advantage over other speakers.

Hammy wrote:
The reforms that you're suggesting would create a mammoth bureaucracy (comparatively speaking) and is quite honestly irrational and downright rude to expect the team of volunteers to meet the rules that you laid out.


When we're dealing with an organization that expects a bunch of high schoolers, who (I can at least speak for myself) are quite honestly just as busy as the leadership of the organization, what with homework and extracurriculars, to follow very specific rules and procedures both within competition and outside of it, I think it's reasonable to expect at least a certain level of organized procedure from them. This is honestly pretty basic compared with a lot of the stuff that NCFCA already does. It's just a set procedure for the adjudication process. Maybe there isn't a set process, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be.

Hammy wrote:
Listen, I know what it feels like. But you need to stop thinking like a lawyer. A lawyer thinks about what he can get away with and he asks for set rules so that he can justify his errors at a later time and intentionally bends his actions so that they remain within the confines of the law while being unethical the whole time.. Instead of thinking about it as what you can get away with, think about what you can do to live above reproach. The spirit of the law is so important here instead of the letter. We are a Christian organization built on solid Biblical foundations that strives to attain the blessing of God when administering judgement. Take some time to think about the disparaging thoughts that you are presenting against NCFCA. You are striving too hard into the territory of "what can I get away with?" and this is leading you to make unrealistic and inconsiderate demands of the NCFCA staff, criticism that they do not deserve and is unwarranted by the lack of examples of failure.


As you probably noticed I fully admitted that in the one instance I was actually involved in an adjudication, I agreed with the process. I don't like the rule but I can see that I was in violation and should not be competing in that event. I'm not trying to get out of anything myself at this point, I'm just honestly concerned about the organization.

I understand and agree with the Biblical principles laid out by this organization but I would challenge the fact that they uphold them unless they can hear and consider objections to the way things work. I'm trying to be fair to the organization and I think I have been. I've said that they can be unreasonable and unfair but I also yet respect the process and agree with them on many counts. I never draw the line where I stop respecting their decisions. The only line I'm drawing is that when I disagree with the organization, I'll say something. I have, after consulting our pastor and discussing it with my family, concluded that I have some objections to the way this organization is conducted. I think this is a decent proposal to solve it. I'm not saying it's perfect but I think it deserves consideration.

Do not tell me that I am the one advocating the letter, not the spirit, of the rules. That's both presumptuous and rather hypocritical, as this is the organization that disqualifies competitors for inadvertently violating a possible interpretation of a very ambiguous phrase or sentence. The spirit of this organization is communication.

That's why I think you all are the ones overreacting. Don't make this bigger than it is. I'm just objecting to some details of the process and suggesting a way to solve them. To me, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. If this league is devoted to fulfilling it's purpose, and there are allegations of problems in the system, they need to address that. I think that some of your reactions, for example
Simon Sefzik wrote:
Oh boy oh boy oh boy...
show that you think this is a huge deal. That really betrays what's behind your defense of the current administration. It only becomes a big deal when they defend their authoritative process without question, which is largely what I've seen. They're not the perfect infallible word of God, so they need to come to terms with the fact that there could very well be some issues. It's not a big deal for me to just say "Hey here are the problems I see, and here's one way I think they could be fixed" regardless of what it is I'm proposing. That's not a big deal is it?

Hammy wrote:
Dibbles wrote:
From what I hear now and had experienced when my siblings and I competed in NCFCA, NCFCA is basically using Authoritarian leadership, making sure kids have strict adherence to the rules. By doing that, they're actually shooting themselves in the foot, which is why you get speeches like Riaz and others.

This is all super subjective and as a five year competitor in NCFCA I couldn't disagree with you more.


This attitude is what the system thrives on. NCFCA isn't a blatant authoritarian structure (that's easier to recognize), but it bears too many resemblances for it to be simply subjective.

I still yet disagree with you on the enforcement of rules, because they're the ones who are not communicating exactly what violations are, and this is a communications organization. They need to fulfill what they expect us to fulfill.

I'm not necessarily advocating a democratic process in NCFCA but I think the authorities of the organization should put some of their time into considering the suggestions we have to offer.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 5:27 pm 
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The idea that advocating for change within an organization is unbiblical/unchristian because it is somehow "disrespectful to authorities" is absurd. Just look at Martin Luther King, Jr.

That's really all I have to say.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Teddy_Roosevelt wrote:
The idea that advocating for change within an organization is unbiblical/unchristian because it is somehow "disrespectful to authorities" is absurd. Just look at Martin Luther King, Jr.

That is a helpful distinction to make. I am not opposed to speaking against injustices. I have a problem with people using "injustices" as a source for disrespect and slander which many do. (not you Jonathan) ;)

However, just because you are allowed to protest injustices doesn't mean that injustices exist. If you would like me to use debate lingo, this is Significance. I do not feel that there are significant problems in NCFCA that warrant attention.

mountain dude wrote:
The Bible has a lot to say on this subject.

Those verses have to do with binding people's consciences concerning what God requires, not following an organization's rules. (NCFCA is not a church)

mountain dude wrote:
I know. I can accept the ruling at this point but I'm still a bit frustrated with the rules, because the way the rule is worded it's kinda ambiguous...

I would actually agree. It isn't always clear in NCFCA rules what is restricted and what isn't. But 99% of the time these adjudication problems could be bypassed if competitors would simply ask. When you were younger didn't your parents ever tell you to ask if you don't know something? If there's any doubt, send NCFCA an email asking for clarification. They'll answer you. I save all my extemp files as HTML files which open in the web browser so it looks like I'm using the internet in extemp prep. I wasn't sure if this was a violation of the somewhat unclear rules. I sent NCFCA an email and they responded by saying that it was perfectly ok. If you don't know, ask. That way you don't get caught off guard. :)

mountain dude wrote:
Actually, as I previously stated, there was an instance where one of my friends got kicked out of all 5 of his speeches because he incorrectly cited a youtube URL.

I doubt that it was as straight forward as that.

mountain dude wrote:
NCFCA is about communication, it's not about teaching you to follow rules.

So it's ok to break rules?

mountain dude wrote:
I think it's reasonable to expect at least a certain level of organized procedure from them.

We already have this.

mountain dude wrote:
I never draw the line where I stop respecting their decisions. The only line I'm drawing is that when I disagree with the organization, I'll say something. I have, after consulting our pastor and discussing it with my family, concluded that I have some objections to the way this organization is conducted

I absolutely agree that you are more than welcome to do so in a respectful way. I would disagree that there is a problem worthy of addressing.

mountain dude wrote:
That's why I think you all are the ones overreacting. Don't make this bigger than it is. I'm just objecting to some details of the process and suggesting a way to solve them. To me, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. If this league is devoted to fulfilling it's purpose, and there are allegations of problems in the system, they need to address that.

I am loathe to point out that some of your wordings could be taken as being inflammatory and overreaching on problems that we feel do not exist and is portraying a misleading disposition towards NCFCA.

mountain dude wrote:
Do not tell me that I am the one advocating the letter, not the spirit, of the rules. That's both presumptuous and rather hypocritical,

No it's really not. You're advocating for to the letter rules. in the 7(?) areas that you brought up.

mountain dude wrote:
It only becomes a big deal when they defend their authoritative process without question, which is largely what I've seen.

That's only what you see. We don't just accept everything that they say, but we have thought it through and haven't based our thoughts on the isolated sob stories that come through about people getting knocked out for "unjust" reasons. We hold the big picture in mind. The picture in which no systematic problems have been observed with NCFCA's adjudication process.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 7:10 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
That's only what you see. We don't just accept everything that they say, but we have thought it through and haven't based our thoughts on the isolated sob stories that come through about people getting knocked out for "unjust" reasons. We hold the big picture in mind. The picture in which no systematic problems have been observed with NCFCA's adjudication process.


NCFCA adjudication process has taught people if this a problem then go to JO. When I went to watch a tournament this year, everyone was talking about how this one team was breaking the rules because they were quoting the Bible. From what I know no one went to talk to them and tell them they were doing something wrong. People first inclination was to go to JO.

If it is a major issue then go to JO, but if it a nitpicky issue, go approach them and tell them how you feel.

Matthew 18:15-16 wrote:
15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witness every fact may be confirmed.

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Last edited by Steel Curtain on Sat May 16, 2015 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 7:25 pm 
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Steel Curtain wrote:
NCFCA adjudication process has taught people if there a problem go to JO. When I went to watch a tournament this year, everyone was talking about how this one team was breaking the rules because they were quoting the Bible. From what I know no one went to talk to them and tell them they were doing something wrong. People first inclination was to go to JO.

If it is a major issue then go to JO, but if it a nitpicky issue, go approach them and tell them how you feel.

Speaking to this specific circumstance, first and foremost you can't get disqualified for quoting the Bible, it's just considered highly sketchy and unprofessional (and thus JO isn't really the proper authority to go to anyway). They were not JO'd at the earliest opportunity and when people actually did take them aside and explained why it is the norm not to quote the bible, the team in question answered to the effect that "if you have a problem with it, then take us to JO." They were approached and they continued to act in that manner through the rest of their rounds and that was why it was discussed bringing them to JO.

Perhaps this issue does occur and the knee-jerk reaction is to JO a team, but I don't think that it has been somehow ingrained into our thought-process to automatically call in JO when any questionable act has taken place.

As a person who has debated for 4 years (though I haven't given a whole lot of speeches) I still can't say that I've ever been called into JO or that I've called someone else into JO, so I've never really seen that side of the league.

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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 7:30 pm 
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Steel Curtain wrote:
Hammy wrote:
That's only what you see. We don't just accept everything that they say, but we have thought it through and haven't based our thoughts on the isolated sob stories that come through about people getting knocked out for "unjust" reasons. We hold the big picture in mind. The picture in which no systematic problems have been observed with NCFCA's adjudication process.


NCFCA adjudication process has taught people if there a problem go to JO. When I went to watch a tournament this year, everyone was talking about how this one team was breaking the rules because they were quoting the Bible. From what I know no one went to talk to them and tell them they were doing something wrong. People first inclination was to go to JO.
Ummm I don't think that's a problem with the adjudication process as a whole, seeing as we have no problem with that in RIX. Teams very rarely actually call each other to JO and almost always talk things out if they have any sort of issue. So that may just be an issue that is unique to your region. (Or maybe RIX is just unique in that aspect. We are pretty awesome, if I do say so myself. ;P)

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 3:46 am 
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marinadelayne wrote:
Steel Curtain wrote:
Hammy wrote:
That's only what you see. We don't just accept everything that they say, but we have thought it through and haven't based our thoughts on the isolated sob stories that come through about people getting knocked out for "unjust" reasons. We hold the big picture in mind. The picture in which no systematic problems have been observed with NCFCA's adjudication process.

NCFCA adjudication process has taught people if there a problem go to JO. When I went to watch a tournament this year, everyone was talking about how this one team was breaking the rules because they were quoting the Bible. From what I know no one went to talk to them and tell them they were doing something wrong. People first inclination was to go to JO.
Ummm I don't think that's a problem with the adjudication process as a whole, seeing as we have no problem with that in RIX. Teams very rarely actually call each other to JO and almost always talk things out if they have any sort of issue. So that may just be an issue that is unique to your region. (Or maybe RIX is just unique in that aspect. We are pretty awesome, if I do say so myself. ;P)

Although I didn't do NCFCA this year, over the past six years my family was in NCFCA this was a problem.

JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
Speaking to this specific circumstance, first and foremost you can't get disqualified for quoting the Bible, it's just considered highly sketchy and unprofessional (and thus JO isn't really the proper authority to go to anyway). They were not JO'd at the earliest opportunity and when people actually did take them aside and explained why it is the norm not to quote the bible, the team in question answered to the effect that "if you have a problem with it, then take us to JO." They were approached and they continued to act in that manner through the rest of their rounds and that was why it was discussed bringing them to JO.

I wasn't there for the whole tournament so I didn't know every detail. I know when I debated, if somebody had a problem with another team they sometimes would just complain about it.

JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
Perhaps this issue does occur and the knee-jerk reaction is to JO a team, but I don't think that it has been somehow ingrained into our thought-process to automatically call in JO when any questionable act has taken place.

One of the debate round I debated in, the other team was using a phone as a calculator in the round. When we told people after the round there first response was, "You should JO them."

I still think NCFCA needs to re-evaluation its adjudication procedure.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:26 am 
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Steel Curtain wrote:
Although I didn't do NCFCA this year, over the past six years my family was in NCFCA this was a problem.
I'm not contesting the idea that it is a problem where you competed...I'm just saying that it may be a regional thing, as I have seen no evidence of it being an issue in my region (at least not in the TP community). And if it varies from region to region, then it is less likely to be a problem with the adjudication process as a whole and more with mindsets within particular regions.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:16 am 
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NCFCA has created a awesome system that simultaneously teaches communication skills and the real-life lesson that sometimes you get screwed over for no apparent reason. Seriously, you have no idea how valuable that last lesson is to college and life in general. The earlier kids learn that the better.

9/10, would have my kids do NCFCA.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about when finicky judges vote in finicky ways. I personally never had a reason to complain about how the league was run, but I was never very good at speech or debate. It's highly doubtful I would have noticed either way.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:09 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
Y'all missed the point. This type of system thrives on that exact problem: we don't know the process. We don't know all of what happens so we can't disagree with it. I completely acknowledge that I can't say in any instance that something is 100% wrong, but there are some very suspicious signs. Even if it turns out that there are no problems in the system, opening up the process (explained below) would be worth it to simply affirm it to everybody that problems don't exist, because however many people love the organization and what they do (myself among them) there are a pretty large number of people that I've talked to–especially in R5 after our regionals a couple weeks ago–who think the process is very erratic.


I didn't miss the point, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. The point of my post was fairly simple. It was a request to keep things in perspective. Essentially, a) we know leadership consists of flawed humans who make mistakes so b) show some grace and remember that we ought not to be discussing our problems with the leadership but the problems with the system. I know that the two are closely related but I can speak out against President Obama's policies with disrespecting him.

I don't have time to post anything longer. If you want to understand where I come from, read BenVincent's post that reminds us...

BenVincent wrote:
So from here on out, let's make this thread not about whether the leaders are good or worthy of respect, but rather about whether the current system for things like adjudications is the best it can be. Let's agree to respect the leaders, and from their we can debate about the various systems that could be implemented. There's nothing wrong with throwing around ideas and discussing potential problems; just remember the One we're representing, and behave in a way that reflects His heart for this league.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:16 pm 
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marinadelayne wrote:
Steel Curtain wrote:
Although I didn't do NCFCA this year, over the past six years my family was in NCFCA this was a problem.
I'm not contesting the idea that it is a problem where you competed...I'm just saying that it may be a regional thing, as I have seen no evidence of it being an issue in my region (at least not in the TP community). And if it varies from region to region, then it is less likely to be a problem with the adjudication process as a whole and more with mindsets within particular regions.

Yeah, there were definitely people in the region who pushed for adjudication.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:50 pm 
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I feel like this thread is almost an annual hsd tradition now :P. I remember having this same discussion in 2009

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:56 pm 
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Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
I feel like this thread is almost an annual hsd tradition now :P. I remember having this same discussion in 2009

Very telling as to how NCFCA leadership runs the organization... :?

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