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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:01 am 
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Hm. Well I talked to the TP champions of regoon V regionals. One of them had bet on their own team to win, and won. He was severely punished, but was allowed to compete at Nats.

But bottom line... don't. Bet. Money. On. Ncfca.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:03 am 
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Would NCFCA leadership object if people started making brackets without money involved? Is it the gambling on fellow students, or is it the fact that people are trying to predict rounds that has them all upset?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:04 pm 
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ShaynePC wrote:
A guy was kicked out of a tournament for using a non-sexual but certainly non-Christian dating app. Of course they'd punish people for betting/brackets even if no money was involved.

I almost want to say that if he let himself be seen using the app then it's more his fault. Why on earth would you use an app like Hot or Not at an NCFCA tournament and allow someone to see you?

_TakenUsername_ wrote:
I severely doubt that Mrs. Hudson would just let it slide if an HSD bracket pool started, given how she reacted to the region 5 incident. (Jonathan, please correct me if I'm wrong on how it went down in region 5, you would obviously know better than me.)

Well to be absolutely fair, all you would have to do is get a mod to create a private thread to host the bracket pool so no one else could see who is in it. :P

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:28 pm 
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JustM.e wrote:
Hm. Well I talked to the TP champions of regoon V regionals. One of them had bet on their own team to win, and won. He was severely punished, but was allowed to compete at Nats.

But bottom line... don't. Bet. Money. On. Ncfca.

That's possible. But again unless they are betting against themselves to lose, it doesn't matter. It doesn't give themselves or their opponents a competitive edge. Incidentally I judges finals and, even though I picked up the team that won, I was very surprised when I heard the panel agreed with me.

On an HSD or community bracket, I don't want to be that guy who compares everything to college, there are some things the ncfca does much better than NFA, but it is instructive to compare situations to other leagues to see if it actually matters. At NFA nationals they release the outrounds bracket when doubles start. Literally everyone has a completed bracket before octas start. I was literally the only one who called the no- name 31 seed beating the 3 seed. One of our coaches told me he really hoped I was wrong because he liked the 3 seed as a person. That coach judged that round and voted for the 31 seed. The assumption that judges or competitors have to be 100% unbiased in order to make an unbiased decision is simply wrong. I am in no way unique in That I have voted against sine if my best friends and voted for people I dont like very much. That assumption that an unbiased judge is necessary does not exist in any other league or sport. And I dint see why it matters for non-competitors/judges.

and the dating app story is amazing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:53 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
ShaynePC wrote:
A guy was kicked out of a tournament for using a non-sexual but certainly non-Christian dating app. Of course they'd punish people for betting/brackets even if no money was involved.

I almost want to say that if he let himself be seen using the app then it's more his fault. Why on earth would you use an app like Hot or Not at an NCFCA tournament and allow someone to see you?

...because there's nothing wrong with doing so. You might as well as "Why on earth would you use an app like Angry Birds at an NCFCA tournament and allow someone to see you?" By having "hidden rules," NCFCA makes it harder for people to follow them. The person using Hot or Not may have been perfectly willing to abide by the rule if it existed, but (without a rule in place) there was no way to know it was wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:28 pm 
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NCFCA Tournament Rules wrote:
Generally speaking, issues involving conduct unbecoming an NCFCA competitor will be handled following the same guidelines as other behavioral or ethical issues.

To be fair, it's not a hidden rule, there's a conduct stipulation. I'll remind you that the app Hot or Not is not something that the vast majority of parents would want their kids doing. If this competitor is using this app in a place in which it is visible to other competitors, some form of adjudication is needed. (granted, I wouldn't call for removal from a tournament unless the reaction of said student was inappropriate, something that we cannot know unless Shayne has more information) Also, keep in mind that NCFCA allows 12 year old kids to compete. We aren't all seniors in high school and the interests of the parents of said kids needs to be kept in mind.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:29 pm 
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anorton wrote:
Hammy wrote:
ShaynePC wrote:
A guy was kicked out of a tournament for using a non-sexual but certainly non-Christian dating app. Of course they'd punish people for betting/brackets even if no money was involved.

I almost want to say that if he let himself be seen using the app then it's more his fault. Why on earth would you use an app like Hot or Not at an NCFCA tournament and allow someone to see you?

...because there's nothing wrong with doing so. You might as well as "Why on earth would you use an app like Angry Birds at an NCFCA tournament and allow someone to see you?" By having "hidden rules," NCFCA makes it harder for people to follow them. The person using Hot or Not may have been perfectly willing to abide by the rule if it existed, but (without a rule in place) there was no way to know it was wrong.



I guess it's okay to watch porn at a tournament then?

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Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Good taste is a thing bro.

But from a rules perspective, yes, to an extent. I wouldn't dq someone for watching porn. I would tell them to stop. If they didn't, they would be removed from the premesis. If they refused to leave, I would call the cops. Actually I would probably do that first because I'm pretty sure watching porn with 12 year olds present is a felony.

But that's irrelevant. Arguing from extremes only works insofar as it changes the topic to something no one is talking about.

And Hammy I'm pretty sure it's not predictable that using a dating app would be "unbecoming a competitor." That clause clearly only exists to punish people that 1) the leadership doesn't like or 2) impose their view of morality in bizarre ways. I have personally seen both happen. It should only be used in extreme and clear circumstances (like, say, porn)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:04 pm 
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LocutusofBorg wrote:
Good taste is a thing bro.

But from a rules perspective, yes, to an extent. I wouldn't dq someone for watching porn. I would tell them to stop. If they didn't, they would be removed from the premesis. If they refused to leave, I would call the cops. Actually I would probably do that first because I'm pretty sure watching porn with 12 year olds present is a felony.

But that's irrelevant. Arguing from extremes only works insofar as it changes the topic to something no one is talking about.

And Hammy I'm pretty sure it's not predictable that using a dating app would be "unbecoming a competitor." That clause clearly only exists to punish people that 1) the leadership doesn't like or 2) impose their view of morality in bizarre ways. I have personally seen both happen. It should only be used in extreme and clear circumstances (like, say, porn)


I would say Hot or Not isn't in good taste.

Okay fair enough. I think it's reasonable to take the same action with hot or not(well not calling the cops, but the other steps). Especially if you are using that app in a public way(for example taking pictures of people and posting them on the app) or showing it off to others. To get caught using that app you have to be pretty blatant. I know competitors that have used similar apps at tournaments they didn't caught because they didn't wave it in people's faces.

It is an extreme example, but it proves what I'm trying to say. A lot of contracts for when you get a job have some kind of morality clause which is broad and general. This would cover things like using the Hot or Not app while on the job or tweeting offensive things about aids while on an airplane. You can bash on a broad morality clause all you want and say it is arbitrary and that it gives authority too much power, but it is the way things work. And that is because organizations want to be able to deal with unacceptable actions even if they aren't specifically banned.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:36 pm 
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I'm fine with a morality clause, it's necessary for extreme circumstances. I'm not fine with how it's imposed. I will admit I've never seen the Hot or Not app but in guessing it's no more sexual than Tinder, in which case I would again argue that it's completely unjustifiable to do... anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:03 pm 
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I will partially recant--I had forgotten how young some NCFCA competitors were. I see it as completely legitimate to desire a level of professionalism from competitors that precludes using such an app while on competition premises.

However, as the story is currently presented it sounds as though no warning was given and a lighting bolt struck from the "sky" of JO, DQing this person from the tournament. I, personally, have not used Hot or Not--but, from a quick Google search, the pictures/content appear to be no more sexual than Twitter or Facebook. Because of ambiguity, a warning should be issued before disqualification. It is not clear that "conduct unbecoming an NCFCA competitor" covers using apps meant for dating. When the same rule precludes competitors from using certain apps and prevents them from murdering each other, the rule is too broad. :P

I think that the proper course of action for violations of a "morality clause" is to warn the offender first and if they do not stop apply whatever punishment necessary. Because "morality clauses" can be very broad and poorly defined, immediate disqualification for violation should only be used in extreme circumstances (hypothetical example: NEG knifes the 1A in the bathroom). This is what you're referring to in the "morality clause" for jobs--most will go through a warning process. It is my understanding that immediate termination is only pursued when an employee does something egregious (like posting NSFW content on FB in an official capacity for an airline, as happened a couple years ago, harassment of a fellow employee or customer, etc.); the clauses I've seen include some kind of warning mechanism.

As a further note, this whole incident serves as reason for keeping public, redacted records of all expulsions, etc. For a guideline on what ought to be included, see what UVa's Honor Committee includes in the public summaries of honor cases. If such a record were kept, we would all know if the student in question had been warned multiple times, or if they were thrown out for a first offense. Keeping transparent records builds trust between the competitors and the overseeing organization.

//Andrew

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:57 pm 
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anorton wrote:
I think that the proper course of action for violations of a "morality clause" is to warn the offender first and if they do not stop apply whatever punishment necessary.


^Precisely. I would have stopped right away if a tournament official came up and told me to. One of the parents at communications asked some of my friends to stop playing Call of Duty in the hangout room, and they did right away. That's all that is necessary.

The problem is, we were open with tournament staff about this from the get go-one of the JO staff came up to us, asked what we were doing, and proceeded to egg us on. He nearly entered a bracket himself. For the leadership to turn around and say "this is wrong, we're going to punish you" is a little much...

JustM.e wrote:
Hm. Well I talked to the TP champions of regoon V regionals. One of them had bet on their own team to win, and won. He was severely punished, but was allowed to compete at Nats.

But bottom line... don't. Bet. Money. On. Ncfca.


Correct. There were maybe 3 or 4 teams who broke who had made brackets, including the 1st place team . Everybody who participated in the bracket was punished exactly the same: 1) Donate to the Institute for Christian Conciliation and 2) Be "on probation" for the next tournament they participate in, which means you have to have two parent chaperones: one to fulfill tournament duties, one to be with you for 100% of the time that you are at the tournament location.

But again, as I said, it really makes little difference as long as you have an understanding with all of the people participating of what's okay and what isn't. Competing your hardest if you bet on yourself is fine. Slacking off if you think you might get money is not. That prevents any problems that might come up.

_TakenUsername_ wrote:
I talked to a friend of mine who used to compete in region 5 and still has a lot of friends there, and he said that some people almost got their slots taken away. I severely doubt that Mrs. Hudson would just let it slide if an HSD bracket pool started, given how she reacted to the region 5 incident. (Jonathan, please correct me if I'm wrong on how it went down in region 5, you would obviously know better than me.)


I'm guessing you're talking about Thomas Lee? I still keep in touch with him quite a bit. :) But yeah, once the board found out about it, they started calling all the people involved and asking them about it, and initially we all thought we were gonna be kicked out of the league for a year or something.

What I'm most frustrated about is the leadership's defense of the punishment. I sat down with one of the board members at nationals and asked her up front why they chose to punish us, and she could not give me one clear reason, other than that they wanted to encourage parents to bond with their kids and watch them compete. The reality is, even if you think that bracket pools or betting on something you're in is wrong and unbiblical, it is NOT the job of NCFCA to punish it. That should be the job of our parents, our churches, and our government. I've consulted all three (my parents, my pastor, and our county judge, who is actually my debate partner's dad. :P) All three said they didn't have a problem with what we did, and all three opposed the punishment from NCFCA. Sadly, I can't justify supporting an organization which contradicts the three most important authorities in my life. They might as well have kicked me out.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:43 am 
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JustM.e wrote:
Hm. Well I talked to the TP champions of regoon V regionals. One of them had bet on their own team to win, and won. He was severely punished, but was allowed to compete at Nats.

FWIW, this was me.

Would I do it again? Absolutely yes.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:07 pm 
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Honestly, why do they even care if you bet money? What possible harm does it bring about?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:54 pm 
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Cyberknight wrote:
Honestly, why do they even care if you bet money? What possible harm does it bring about?

If you bet in such a way that it is to your monetary benefit to lose, then it means people may throw matches. Other than that, people have this "thing" against gambling.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:30 am 
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anorton wrote:
Cyberknight wrote:
Honestly, why do they even care if you bet money? What possible harm does it bring about?

If you bet in such a way that it is to your monetary benefit to lose, then it means people may throw matches. Other than that, people have this "thing" against gambling.

And, bets aside, considering he was certainly trying to win that round, no problems there. I was one of the judges. I hope you read the short book I wrote on the ballot :P

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:57 am 
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LocutusofBorg wrote:
anorton wrote:
Cyberknight wrote:
Honestly, why do they even care if you bet money? What possible harm does it bring about?

If you bet in such a way that it is to your monetary benefit to lose, then it means people may throw matches. Other than that, people have this "thing" against gambling.

And, bets aside, considering he was certainly trying to win that round, no problems there. I was one of the judges. I hope you read the short book I wrote on the ballot :P

From what I remember of the round, I'm lucky the remarkably poor start to by 2NC didn't convince you otherwise. :P

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2014-2015: Brejda/Wismer (1st at regionals; 2-4 at nationals)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:30 pm 
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anorton wrote:
Cyberknight wrote:
Honestly, why do they even care if you bet money? What possible harm does it bring about?

If you bet in such a way that it is to your monetary benefit to lose, then it means people may throw matches. Other than that, people have this "thing" against gambling.


It's not like we're Christians and we can understand what it is okay morally and what isn't or anything.

Teddy_Roosevelt wrote:
From what I remember of the round, I'm lucky the remarkably poor start to by 2NC didn't convince you otherwise. :P

The END of the 2NC was what was hilarious, lol
"This is from April 1st, which is April fools day, so the evidence could very well be an April fools joke. The affirmative team needs to disprove this by reading a piece of evidence from a different date..." or something like that

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