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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:21 am 
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Do any schools actually have automatic scholarship agreements with NCFCA? It's the school's job to make sure they're getting the students they want not NCFCA's job to take the fun out of debate ;)

And as Locutus said, college debaters/coaches bet on rounds as well so it doesn't seem to be a huge issue in terms of integrity of competition. Of course NCFCA has a "right" to make whatever rules they want. At the same time, students and alumni have a right to disagree with and occasionally make fun of the rules on online forums :P

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:23 pm 
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ShaynePC wrote:
Here's a better example thank gambling. A friend and a friend of his who will go unnamed was kicked out of a tournament for using the Hot or Not app during down time, quietly and inconspicuously, on his own wifi too I believe.

If it was so inconspicuous, then how did anyone find out?

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-Joshua
08-09 | Half-Timer | Verdict | R8
09-10 | Timer | Verdict | R8
10-11 | Folkert/Folkert | Verdict | R8
11-12 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
12-13 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
13-14 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
14-15 | Folkert/Porter | Arx Axiom | R8
15-16 | Doto/Folkert | Verdict | R8


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:26 pm 
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Mountain Dude: I'm going to address things from a completely different perspective than any other response. My question for you is why are you doing this? What do you expect to accomplish from this post on HSD?

Let's assume that you are completely right about everything you said. NCFCA treated you unfairly and at this point you are not going to be participating in the league next year and that is unfair to you and your family. Still, what you are doing on here is not the right way to handle this situation. You are gossiping about the NCFCA leadership in a way that goes against the Bible(Ephesians, 4:29, Leviticus, 19:16, 2 Corinthians, 12:20 and James, 4:11). I think what you are doing is gossip in part because there is no real purpose behind it. You are not going to change how NCFCA operates or get your punishment reduced. Also what you are doing isn't constructive it is only destructive. I think it is okay to discuss positive changes that NCFCA should make on HSD, but I don't think it is okay to essentially rant about how unfair leadership is while never proposing any solutions and being mostly negative. I understand that you have serious issues with NCFCA leadership, but I think you should talk to them about it not to us. This would follow the Matthew 18 principle https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... 18%3A15-19 that the Bible lays out for this kind of situation. I really think that is a better way to approach things then talking about your situation on this forum.

I get the urge to be angry and mad when things don't go the way you want. Last summer I really wanted to do TP, but I couldn't find a partner. So I got mad at the situation in general and vented about unfairness. This accomplished absolutely nothing except ensuring that I didn't do as well at LD as I easily could have. The point of that is that sometimes in life you have to move on. Things suck sometimes, you don't catch any breaks, you get messed over by authority. But things won't ever get better if you stay in the past. As I've seen from my own experience you'll be left feeling bitter. Instead what you have to do is let go of the bad things that have happened to you and move on. Obviously that isn't easy or fun, but I think at least in my case it led to more enjoyment and ultimately I went down the path God wanted even if it wasn't the path Caleb wanted.

I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh or judgmental. That isn't the point; the point is I've walked a similar path to the one you're walking and it leads to nowhere positive.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:46 pm 
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Venting can absolutely be positive especially when there is no avenue for actual recourse. Controversy corner is filled with people venting instead of writing their representative or president ;).

Venting is a means of processing emotions which is a healthy thing in my opinion.

Re: Matt 18. I'm pretty sure he has talked to leadership already and there is a time for public discussion when private discussions are fruitless.

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If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church;

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:48 pm 
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This isn't the church. :D

Edit: Also, Jonathan did go to his pastor.

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08-09 | Half-Timer | Verdict | R8
09-10 | Timer | Verdict | R8
10-11 | Folkert/Folkert | Verdict | R8
11-12 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
12-13 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
13-14 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
14-15 | Folkert/Porter | Arx Axiom | R8
15-16 | Doto/Folkert | Verdict | R8


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:19 pm 
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Db8r_from_Dixie wrote:
Venting can absolutely be positive especially when there is no avenue for actual recourse. Controversy corner is filled with people venting instead of writing their representative or president ;).

Venting is a means of processing emotions which is a healthy thing in my opinion.

Re: Matt 18. I'm pretty sure he has talked to leadership already and there is a time for public discussion when private discussions are fruitless.

Quote:
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church;


To some extent venting can be effective, but it isn't the ultimate answer. There's a point where venting needs to end. If all you do is vent you eventually turn into Donald Trump ;) And where you vent matters; again see all my verses about gossip. The point I was making was not so much about venting as much as about where the venting is being expressed(in a relatively public forum) and the fact to some extent that the venting is gossip.

I was curious as to whether anyone would compare this to the political discussions that we have on this board. I think that comparison fails for a few reasons. 1. There is a difference between arguing about political positions and arguing about NCFCA: Most political arguments aren't venting as much as iron sharpening iron. The problem you have is that you are essentially saying all arguments are venting which isn't true otherwise we'd think of TP rounds as venting. And yes there is venting in CC to some extent, but I would categorize most posts as not being in that category. 2. Gossip: The political discussions we have wouldn't be categorized as gossip. Now if I started to talk about Obama having extramarital affairs or something equally ludicrous that would be gossip especially with nothing but anecdotal evidence. That again is my main problem with Jonathan's posts. 3. The context of Christianity: The Bible has a specific process of how to handle disagreement with other Christians who we directly interact with. We don't interact with politicians routinely; we do interact with the NCFCA in that way. That shows that Matt 18 specifically applies to this situation. 4. Direct recourse: With political discussions we really can't write an email to the president or SCOTUS and expect a response with the NCFCA we can do that. It may not be what we want, but there will be a response.

Hammy is right NCFCA isn't the church. I didn't know Jonathan had talked to his pastor though, props to you for doing that!!

If Jonathan has reached the end of the reconciliation process in Matt 18 he should treat the NCFCA like a pagan or a tax collector. Which means we should treat them as lost. And because they are lost we should show them the love and grace of Christ which I don't think these posts have done.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:16 pm 
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Before people start bashing these posts as unhelpful, I'd like to point out that some of us (i.e. me) have never been involved with NCFCA or Stoa. Posts like these provide valuable insight into problems with the league that would require a substantial investment of time and effort to uncover.

If everyone pretends that no problems exist, there will be no warning to those considering entrance to the league.
If everyone pretends that no problems exist, those running the league will not have pressure to reform.
If everyone pretends that no problems exist, we are essentially lying to cover faults in others.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:27 pm 
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Even though I've never met Kim Kardashian, the supermarket tabloids provide valuable insight into her problems with her husband that would require a substantial investment of time and effort to uncover.

Caleb is warning about the Biblical ramifications of gossip and slander, something that is incredibly easy for us to fall into when discussing NCFCA in this context.

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08-09 | Half-Timer | Verdict | R8
09-10 | Timer | Verdict | R8
10-11 | Folkert/Folkert | Verdict | R8
11-12 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
12-13 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
13-14 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
14-15 | Folkert/Porter | Arx Axiom | R8
15-16 | Doto/Folkert | Verdict | R8


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:31 pm 
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anorton wrote:
Before people start bashing these posts as unhelpful, I'd like to point out that some of us (i.e. me) have never been involved with NCFCA or Stoa. Posts like these provide valuable insight into problems with the league that would require a substantial investment of time and effort to uncover.

If everyone pretends that no problems exist, there will be no warning to those considering entrance to the league.
If everyone pretends that no problems exist, those running the league will not have pressure to reform.
If everyone pretends that no problems exist, we are essentially lying to cover faults in others.


My issue with the posts isn't that they are unhelpful. It is the Biblical stuff that I outlined in my first post and it is the tone of the posts and whether they will ever be constructive or just destructive.(Ninjaed by Hammy; he's right on the money as usual)

I don' think anyone is pretending that problems don't exist if you look at JMP's and Justin's posts you will see acknowledgement that they respectfully disagree with the decision. I think what we are saying is that the tone has been wrong. And ultimately the way to change things isn't through an online forum with 100 active users at max. You can certainly have a productive discussion of reform of NCFCA on HSD, but I don't think threads like this accomplish that. We are only lying if NCFCA has serious issues based on my experience and what I know of experiences of others that isn't the case.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:14 pm 
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Years ago there were people insinuating that ncfca leaders were basically skimming money from membership fees for themselves. That is gossip/slander without proof.

Talking about actual observed problems that have personally affected you/friends is not gossip. I posted on social media about my frustration with obamacare bureaucracy - that's not gossip. We are not speculating about the private lives of ncfca leaders just their public policies which are fair game.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:00 am 
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I've discussed my issues with the leadership, with my parents and with my pastor. I came to this thead because I saw it as an opportunity, if not to gain consolation, to at least inform people of the league which they're competing in. I've decided that, at this point, nothing is going to change so I have nothing to lose from sharing my perspective on the situation.

Justin, if you're determined to think ill of my friends and I and our honesty/integrity regarding a fun competition, that's up to you. Professional sports is 100 percent different. When you're dealing with a bunch of...well, jerks making multi millions per year, that's different, but this is homeschool speech and debate, where we all sign on to a statement of faith. The fact remains that there was no rule against it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:08 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
Justin, if you're determined to think ill of my friends and I and our honesty/integrity regarding a fun competition, that's up to you. Professional sports is 100 percent different. When you're dealing with a bunch of...well, jerks making multi millions per year, that's different, but this is homeschool speech and debate, where we all sign on to a statement of faith. The fact remains that there was no rule against it.

There's also no rule against cleverly stealing the ballot from your judge without him/her knowing it and hiring someone to impersonate the judge and hand in a decision in your favor.

What Justin is saying here is that there are many rules which are taken for granted in any sort of competitive sport. Just because there's no written rule about it in NCFCA doesn't mean that there isn't an obvious code of conduct for competitive sporting. One such rule is that competitors are never allowed to place bets. There is no inherent difference here between the MLB and the NCFCA. Allowing competitors to place bets breeds and encourages the wrong behavior and ultimately undermines competition as a whole.

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-Joshua
08-09 | Half-Timer | Verdict | R8
09-10 | Timer | Verdict | R8
10-11 | Folkert/Folkert | Verdict | R8
11-12 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
12-13 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
13-14 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
14-15 | Folkert/Porter | Arx Axiom | R8
15-16 | Doto/Folkert | Verdict | R8


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:08 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
I've discussed my issues with the leadership, with my parents and with my pastor. I came to this thead because I saw it as an opportunity, if not to gain consolation, to at least inform people of the league which they're competing in. I've decided that, at this point, nothing is going to change so I have nothing to lose from sharing my perspective on the situation.

Justin, if you're determined to think ill of my friends and I and our honesty/integrity regarding a fun competition, that's up to you. Professional sports is 100 percent different. When you're dealing with a bunch of...well, jerks making multi millions per year, that's different, but this is homeschool speech and debate, where we all sign on to a statement of faith. The fact remains that there was no rule against it.


Okay that makes sense. I get the desire to inform people. But that gets back to what I was saying earlier about gossip and more specifically about Matthew 18. HSD isn't a church, it isn't the correct place to do this. If you feel you have reached the end of the reconciliation process that is fine, but you should treat the NCFCA like a "pagan or tax collector" essentially someone who is unsaved. I hope that you wouldn't post things like this about someone that doesn't have faith in Christ. I hope instead you'd be loving and graceful, even if that hurts. I'm also not a big fan of the nothing to lose perspective. It assumes the only thing that matters is your relationship and competition in the NCFCA. To be frank, any relationship with NCFCA pales in your relationship to Jesus. And like all things your focus should be on that. And that ties back directly to everything I have been saying about gossip and Matthew 18.

Justin isn't calling your integrity into question. He's saying that gambling can lead to bad things. Clearly nobody is going to throw a round for $30. But imagine if 20 of you placed a bet of $20 each, that is enough money where it becomes an issue. Just because something isn't in the rules doesn't mean leadership has no right to punish it. That's silly. For example, there is no specific prohibition against throwing rounds and there is no specific prohibition about locking your opponent in a closet so they have to forfeit the round against you. In both those cases, leadership should step in and do something.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:01 pm 
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People keep throwing around Matthew 18:15-17 saying "we shouldn't criticize NCFCA publicly; at the very worst, we should post in love/kindness as if they were not saved." However, those saying this are overlooking a very important nuance: NCFCA isn't a person. It can't be "saved;" it cannot be considered a "brother" (as per the verse). (Obligatory Blimey Cow; just watch until 1:06 and replace "band" with "group of people.") We're talking about an organization.

Most (perhaps all) of us here are not pointing fingers at the people in charge of NCFCA; rather, we're critiquing the policy choices that the organization pursues. As such, I contend that Matthew 18 does not apply here.

An analogy: Saying "Brother Jimmy down the street stole my cow" would violate Matthew 18. However, saying "The Christian Farmer's Association has policies that allow its leadership to engage in livestock theft" is not a Matthew 18 "violation." In the former, we're pointing to a particular person; in the latter, we're pointing to a policy. Quite honestly, with the very loose interpretation of Matthew 18 that you've taken, I fail to see how you could lobby for the improvement of any Christian organization.

Hammy wrote:
Even though I've never met Kim Kardashian, the supermarket tabloids provide valuable insight into her problems with her husband that would require a substantial investment of time and effort to uncover.

Caleb is warning about the Biblical ramifications of gossip and slander, something that is incredibly easy for us to fall into when discussing NCFCA in this context.

I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to confirm that insight is "valuable." :P

I understand that these posts are warnings about gossip and slander, but I do not think anyone has yet crossed that boundary.

//Andrew

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:45 pm 
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anorton wrote:
People keep throwing around Matthew 18:15-17 saying "we shouldn't criticize NCFCA publicly; at the very worst, we should post in love/kindness as if they were not saved." However, those saying this are overlooking a very important nuance: NCFCA isn't a person. It can't be "saved;" it cannot be considered a "brother" (as per the verse). (Obligatory Blimey Cow; just watch until 1:06 and replace "band" with "group of people.") We're talking about an organization.

Most (perhaps all) of us here are not pointing fingers at the people in charge of NCFCA; rather, we're critiquing the policy choices that the organization pursues. As such, I contend that Matthew 18 does not apply here.

An analogy: Saying "Brother Jimmy down the street stole my cow" would violate Matthew 18. However, saying "The Christian Farmer's Association has policies that allow its leadership to engage in livestock theft" is not a Matthew 18 "violation." In the former, we're pointing to a particular person; in the latter, we're pointing to a policy. Quite honestly, with the very loose interpretation of Matthew 18 that you've taken, I fail to see how you could lobby for the improvement of any Christian organization.

Hammy wrote:
Even though I've never met Kim Kardashian, the supermarket tabloids provide valuable insight into her problems with her husband that would require a substantial investment of time and effort to uncover.

Caleb is warning about the Biblical ramifications of gossip and slander, something that is incredibly easy for us to fall into when discussing NCFCA in this context.

I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to confirm that insight is "valuable." :P

I understand that these posts are warnings about gossip and slander, but I do not think anyone has yet crossed that boundary.

//Andrew


I disagree with your assessment for a few key reasons:

1. NCFCA may not be a person, but it is composed of people. When we talk about conflict with NCFCA we are not talking about some kind of impersonal Jonathan vs. robot struggle. Instead we are talking about Jonathan vs. Mrs. Hudson and others on the board. NCFCA may not be an individual, but it is composed of individuals that are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Also if you read through these threads you'll see there have been some relatively viscous attacks on individuals in NCFCA(mostly Mrs. Hudson).

2. There is a reconciliation process for dealing with NCFCA. A big part of your Matthew 18 objection is built on the implicit assumption that we can't reconcile with NCFCA, because of its size. That isn't the case. There are peacemaking organization out there that would work with you and NCFCA(I believe NCFCA actually talks about one specific organization, but I can't find that info at the moment).

3. We can still talk about making positive reforms. I actually started a thread about this that you posted in Andrew. So I find it silly to say that my interpretation of Matthew 18 means that we can't have any kind of discussion about these issues. Your cattle analogy also shows the problem with your logic. The way you phrased it seems to almost be an accusation of leadership that they are stealing cattle. After all, why would it matter if the policy was flawed if no cattle were ever stolen? I believe in that case you should also directly approach leadership and try to reconcile with them as the Bible lays out. Certainly posting about their policy on HSC(HomeschoolCattle.com) won't have any effect and is really useless and gossip.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:38 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
@justin, if you're determined to think ill of my friends and I and our honesty/integrity regarding a fun competition, that's up to you. Professional sports is 100 percent different. When you're dealing with a bunch of...well, jerks making multi millions per year, that's different, but this is homeschool speech and debate, where we all sign on to a statement of faith. The fact remains that there was no rule against it.


I'm sorry if that's how I came across. Let me assure you that I think you and your friends had the purest intentions. Really.

... I... don't think it's safe to call all professional athletes jerks. Certainly some of them are jerks at times. But I guess that's really a different story.

The point is this:

It sounds like NCFCA gave you an unjustifiably large punishment for a "crime" that possibly shouldn't even warrant punishment.

I'm merely stating that NCFCA wasn't wrong to discourage the practice, and it would be wise to understand where the NCFCA leadership is coming from. We can only achieve progress and change if we are willing to understand one another's viewpoints. I was trying to show you how the practice of gambling on your own results could have disastrous effects, and why the NCFCA would be wise to ban that kind of activity.

Once again, I do not agree with the excessive punishment.

Once again, I do not think poorly of you or your friends. When I mentioned "the integrity of the competition," I meant ensuring that everyone was trying to win, so that the best team won, not the integrity of you and your friends. :)

I hope that clears things up a little.

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Reagan Bass/Justin Moffatt '13-'14
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:43 pm 
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@Hammy The offenses which you and Caleb described very clearly go against Biblical teachings of honesty and love, which we ascribe to by agreeing to NCFCA's statement of faith. The same can definitely not be said for a bracket pool. There was no rule against it, and if it isn't something that goes against principles in the Bible, then there is no offense which merits no punishment.

@Caleb I've taken my issue to the church, to the leadership, and to countless friends, as have my parents. If any of you would like to question any of the facts that I've laid out, fine. At this point, it's not gossip. It's information which I am disseminating publicly to facilitate transparency and inform people of the league which they're competing in with information which they have a right to know. Under no interpretation does that violate Matthew 18.

I think you're taking "loving and graceful" one step too far. I told Mrs. Hudson after nationals how much I appreciated all that she did. How many of my friends would have said the same to her? Very few, because so many of them are resentful and hurt by NCFCA (because of bracketgate and some adjudications which occurred at regionals). Love means appreciation and respect, but love also means constructive criticism where it is due. I will forever admire the NCFCA board for all that they do-I could never take their job. I refuse to refrain from presenting information where it needs to be exposed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:50 pm 
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@justin Thank you, I might have assumed too much.

My point was that professional sports betting deals with much larger sums of money, and it's a much more heated competition (how many people watch the super bowl every year?). I get if you think NCFCA should discourage it, and I might say the same if I were in leadership. Then again, I might not; it's a tough question.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:27 am 
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There is a lot of money on the line in professional leagues in terms of tv deals and legal betting by non-players. we are talking billions of dollars which is why historically organized crime groups have been involved with match fixing. Unless you're worried about mafia syndicates in ncfca I think comparisons to professional competitions are off target ;). yes, ncfca is competitive but it is an educational activity not an economic one. No one outside of the bracket pool would lose money if a round is thrown.

There is no penalty for throwing a round to help a friend qualify for regionals/nationals. In fact, it used to be a common practice that qualified teams would defer the chance to advance to outrounds at major tournaments. It seems unreasonable to draw the line here

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:31 am 
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And I would be willing to wager that many people posting on hsd about frustrations have first-hand experience with the unwillingness of the league to change. It's naive to pretend that we are somehow reducing the likelihood of meaningful change by talking about things on a message board.

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