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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:16 pm 
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ShaynePC wrote:
The rules have varied. NCFCA suffers from a real problem of favoritism on a personal and regional level.


Why do you say that? I will clarify things. I'm the guy who got the roll down spot in impromptu who didn't break. I believe it was because we broke everyone in impromptu semis to nats and one of those people had already qualified at an open, but I don't know for sure.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:40 pm 
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Hey guys leadership is still leadership, so you still need to respect them. They work hard to keep NCFCA running the way it is. And nobody is perfect, everyone makes mistakes.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:48 pm 
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ShaynePC wrote:
Firstly, I dispute that. If someone is corrupt or immoral in their actions I have no grounds to respect them as a person or as a leader.

I'm waiting on Biblical support for that. ;) Also, those are some pretty brazen words to use about the leadership of NCFCA. I highly suspect that your sources are seriously exaggerating the problems.

:Requesting a thread split in order to continue this.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:49 pm 
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But they are still put into leadership over us. And you haven't given any reason/example why they are corrupt. Are you saying all of NCFCA's leadership is corrupt? And what Hammy said.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:52 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
:Requesting a thread split in order to continue this.

Request granted. :)

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:27 am 
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There's some definite truth to what ShaynePC is saying, but the problem is the last time somebody (one of my R5 friends, incidentally) spoke out about it publicly, he got targeted big time, so I'm not going to publicly cite any specific instances.

I will say that my problem with NCFCA is less the targeting and favoritism and more the administrative structure and the flat out ridiculous applications of rules.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:57 am 
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Come on guys, we are a bunch of high schoolers and maybe some college students complaining about a league run by people who dedicate their lives and time so we can compete in the league, and here you are saying you don't respect them. Last time I checked, nobody on this website is running any league to benefit highschoolers.

The NCFCA is human. And to say that you don't respect them because they may (or may not) have made mistakes without providing any documentation is not productive.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:42 am 
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Simon Sefzik wrote:
Come on guys, we are a bunch of high schoolers and maybe some college students complaining about a league run by people who dedicate their lives and time so we can compete in the league, and here you are saying you don't respect them. Last time I checked, nobody on this website is running any league to benefit highschoolers.

The NCFCA is human. And to say that you don't respect them because they may (or may not) have made mistakes without providing any documentation is not productive.

Ditto this.^^^^

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:41 am 
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Simon Sefzik wrote:
Come on guys, we are a bunch of high schoolers and maybe some college students complaining about a league run by people who dedicate their lives and time so we can compete in the league, and here you are saying you don't respect them. Last time I checked, nobody on this website is running any league to benefit highschoolers.

The NCFCA is human. And to say that you don't respect them because they may (or may not) have made mistakes without providing any documentation is not productive.


I don't think anybody here questions that we need to respect NCFCA's authority, but this isn't disrespect, just as it isn't disrespectful to the incumbent president to vote for his challenger. I respect NCFCA in that I don't go traipsing past the 'no competitors' signs into ballot return or leaving my internet on in the extemp prep room on purpose. BUT. There's a difference between respecting the authority and agreeing with the authority.

NCFCA is human, yes. The problem is, you missed the second of two very important implications of that. You recognize the fact that they make mistakes, but you don't recognize the fact that when they do make mistakes, we need to say something.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 4:44 am 
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Now that's there's an entire thread for this do you care to explain what you saw "behind the curtain" shayne?

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:01 pm 
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Forerunner wrote:
Now that's there's an entire thread for this do you care to explain what you saw "behind the curtain" shayne?


^^This. Irrespective of everything about NCFCA's right to respect, they at the very least deserve more than cryptic threads that explain nothing. The purpose of a forum thread is public discussion, and that discussion can't take place without details.

I have found that more often than not, the intentions and applications of rules and regulations undergo a large amount of internal scrutiny. When mistakes are made - and they are - they tend to be willing to discuss said mistakes after the fact. For example, I was disqualified from impromtu based on a very questionable interpretation of the personal misconduct rule. I would later recieve a personal apology from NCFCA staff for the way things happened. Based on my personal experience, I can attest to two things. First, NCFCA makes mistakes and those mistakes hurt people. Secondly, I don't think the intention of the leadership is anything like what it's often painted to be, even though the actions taken are unjust. To me, an accusation about intent is a rather serious charge. Intent of favoritism is more than just a "mistake" like I have experienced, it's a willfully innapropriate action. So what exactly is the deal here? What exactly happened?

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:15 pm 
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I'll just give one example. One of my friends, after speaking out about some problems with the organization, was dropped in all 5 IEs because he "incorrectly cited a youtube URL" in his persuasive. That's a reverse example-targeting, not favoritism, but targeting is almost worse. At least in R5, it seems like there's at least one or two ridiculous adjudications per tournament (and at Regionals a couple weeks ago there were more like 4 or 5).

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:50 pm 
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How did he go about speaking out?

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 3:23 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
I'll just give one example. One of my friends, after speaking out about some problems with the organization, was dropped in all 5 IEs because he "incorrectly cited a youtube URL" in his persuasive. That's a reverse example-targeting, not favoritism, but targeting is almost worse. At least in R5, it seems like there's at least one or two ridiculous adjudications per tournament (and at Regionals a couple weeks ago there were more like 4 or 5).

Something similar has happened before. The reason in the example I'm thinking of was the way the competitor "spoke out" about the problems inside organization. They had little to no evidence to support their claims, and if it had been about an organization that wasn't NCFCA, very possibly could have been sued for his "speaking out". It was a malicious and tarnishing speech, and that's not what we're supposed to learn in the NCFCA.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:34 am 
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Peter_Policy wrote:
Something similar has happened before. The reason in the example I'm thinking of was the way the competitor "spoke out" about the problems inside organization. They had little to no evidence to support their claims, and if it had been about an organization that wasn't NCFCA, very possibly could have been sued for his "speaking out". It was a malicious and tarnishing speech, and that's not what we're supposed to learn in the NCFCA.


Peter, I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on that issue. The result should not have been what untimely happened, BUT what occurred was not because the competitor 'spoke out' against the organization. As we both know, competitors brought them to JO, not the staff. This was not retaliation against students, this was an issue difficult to deal with and simply badly defended.

To everyone, the staff of NCFCA is not trying to intentionally harm students. Bad decisions have been made (#CantaloupeSeason), but never has the intent been to harm students and always the parents are trying to do everything in their power be on our side.

Of course, in many regions there are parents that are out to get the students, just ask any R7 mom that works extemp prep at a national open. Does that mean the organization is fundamentally flawed and need to be reformed? No.
Are JOings effected by past rule violation done by the same student? Yes, but reputation and past actions effect everyone's attitude towards one another.
Can this be called favoritism? Sure, but just like a criminal record for a judge and jury, past problems and actions effect JO.
Does this mean there is an issue? Not in R7 and not on a national level. Just because a student ends up with a ruling that can destroy his tournament, does not mean he/she did not violate a rule. In the end, if someone violated a rule, then they have to admit to it -not blame it on 'a corrupt NCFCA.'

Also, I think every student here needs to remember something incredibly important: we do not know the full story, ever. Every bit of information we gain comes from either other competitors (It can be part of the story. It can be an ever-so-slightly warped story. It can be second, third, or even four handed information. The game 'telephone' plays a huge role here.), half truths from our own or other's parents because they don't have the liberty to disclose the full information, or even rants from the siblings or parents of the accused kid. Rarely, do we get the full, complete, unbiased story. Normally I have piece it together from ten different sources to get the truth because I won't judge someone until I know what actually happened.

It all comes back to reputation. Reputation of the students, reputation of the parents, and reputation of the organization. No one should judge a scenario until they know the full, complete, unbiased story. Sadly, that rarely happens outside of a few people and clubs. And when it doesn't? Well places like this thread start to appear and people's reputations are destroyed.

This is why JOs are supposed to be kept secret -to protect people's reputations. Problems only start to arise when it gets leaked and rumors spread.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:48 am 
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Jonah.a.barnes wrote:
How did he go about speaking out?


I was prohibited from giving any further information about this because the competitor in question is still a competitor. That's the biggest problem is that as soon as somebody gets blamed for something they're painted as a malicious jerk and then staff and judges will have an unavoidable bias against that competitor.

Don't make this bigger than it is. I'm just saying that if there are problems and if people respectfully call them out and ask that they be addressed then they shouldn't be targeted because of it, and that happens.

zZzSapphireBluezZz wrote:
we do not know the full story, ever


All you need to know is that A) there are issues, B) they were brought to the attention of the organization C) the result of B was, intentionally or unintentionally, a biased adjudication process, no matter what the ultimate decision was, and D) something could have been done, but was not done, to prevent C. If you can prove that then you can prove that something needs to change.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:50 am 
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But again, do not make this bigger than it is. I'm not saying you should totally revamp the adjudication process or change up how the leadership works or anything. All I'm saying is that you should try to make changes to combat it. Better to fail trying to do the right thing than to not try at all.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:58 am 
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I was prohibited from giving any further information about this because the competitor in question is still a competitor. That's the biggest problem is that as soon as somebody gets blamed for something they're painted as a malicious jerk and then staff and judges will have an unavoidable bias against that competitor.

No one was asking you to say who the person WAS. All people asked is what the manner of his speech was like. You can certainly tell us that without in any way revealing the identity of the person.

Quote:
All you need to know is that A) there are issues, B) they were brought to the attention of the organization C) the result of B was, intentionally or unintentionally, a biased adjudication process, no matter what the ultimate decision was, and D) something could have been done, but was not done, to prevent C. If you can prove that then you can prove that something needs to change.

Right, but that's exactly what we aren't sure of...because we don't know the details!

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 1:00 am 
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zZzSapphireBluezZz wrote:
Bad decisions have been made (#CantaloupeSeason)
...cantaloupe...season...?

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 1:09 am 
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Ok, fair enough. I thought he addressed it very respectfully. I mean, it killed his tournament and he was super depressed and stuff but he took it standing and brought his complaint/appeal to them fairly respectfully.

MSD wrote:
...cantaloupe...season...?


The Cantaloupe thing was something that happened R7 I believe...I heard about it 3rd or 4th hand so maybe somebody involved or somebody who knows more about it can explain it in better detail. All I know for certain is that there was some scandal involving the word 'cantaloupe' in an impromptu final round at an R7 tournament...last year maybe?

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