homeschool debate | Forums Wiki

HomeSchoolDebate

Speech and Debate Resources and Community
Forums      Wiki
It is currently Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:52 am
Not a member? Guests can only see part of the forums. To see the whole thing (and add your voice!), just register a free account by following these steps.

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 179 posts ]  Go to page Previous 14 5 6 7 8 9 Next

Should NCFCA make specific reforms?
Yes 68%  68%  [ 30 ]
No 32%  32%  [ 14 ]
Total votes: 44
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:10 am 
Offline
Mr. Grumpy
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:37 pm
Posts: 209
Home Schooled: Yes
Hammy wrote:
Effervescent wrote:
No, they switched a slot from at-large to Regionals at the last minute, after already having awarded all of the slots.

A miscalculation. ;)
Effervescent wrote:
And, as Graham pointed out, it's not the only example. A single miscalculation is one thing, but multiple ones at the National level is concerning.

Yeah, it isn't good, but mistakes do happen. Look at how many students will actually be competing at Nationals. Three mistakes is looking rather small in the grand scheme of things. I recognize that even three is terrible, but it's not like NCFCA is doing something super wrong and that their messing up a quarter of the slots, but they're small miscalculations. You can't fix those. We are human after all. ;)


Significance isn't determined only by the breadth of the impact, but also by the depth of it. Even if three cases is small (1. It's not; 2. There could be more; 3. This is the first I've ever heard of this happening so it's a big deal in that sense), the weight of this matter absolutely makes it a big deal. For all the reasons explained by Effervescent, national slots are an extremely big deal and even one mess up is absolutely a significant problem, let alone three.

Also, I don't buy that we can't fix it. This hasn't been a big problem is recent years past. The fact this is a problem now clearly shows that we can have a system where this isn't one.

_________________
Graham Stacy:
NCFCA & Stoa Alumnus
Author: COG Debate
Coach: ResolvedFL - Sigma Society
USF - Class of '19 - Applied Mathematics


Last edited by Crazy-Clubin'-People on Fri May 16, 2014 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:47 pm
Posts: 1377
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: H*wL*tt P*ck*rd muffins
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Hammy wrote:
Effervescent wrote:
No, they switched a slot from at-large to Regionals at the last minute, after already having awarded all of the slots.

A miscalculation. ;)
Effervescent wrote:
And, as Graham pointed out, it's not the only example. A single miscalculation is one thing, but multiple ones at the National level is concerning.

Yeah, it isn't good, but mistakes do happen. Look at how many students will actually be competing at Nationals. Three mistakes is looking rather small in the grand scheme of things. I recognize that even three is terrible, but it's not like NCFCA is doing something super wrong and that their messing up a quarter of the slots, but they're small miscalculations. You can't fix those. We are human after all. ;)


Significance isn't determined only by the breadth of the impact, but also by the depth of it. Even if three cases is small (1. It's not; 2. There could be more; 3. This is the first I've ever heard of this happening so it's a big deal in that sense), the weight of this matter absolutely makes it a big deal. For all the reasons explained by Effervescent, national slots are an extremely big deal and even one mess up is absolutely a significant problem, let alone three.

And what are you proposing to do about it? Mistakes happen.

_________________
-Joshua
The dumb Boatswain's Mate who once did debate
Proud Coastie, Puddle Pirate, and Shallow Water Sailor


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:18 am
Posts: 71
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: at a liberal rally, probably
Accidents do happen, and I probably shouldn't have posted that much of a rant. However, it's still a terrible situation for all of the competitors involved, and it would be good if it didn't happen again.

_________________
| Region II |
| WSU '21 |


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:47 pm
Posts: 1377
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: H*wL*tt P*ck*rd muffins
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Also, I don't buy that we can't fix it. This hasn't been a big problem is recent years past. The fact this is a problem now clearly shows that we can have a system where this isn't one.

Or maybe, just maybe, this was the first year that a slight error was made in the entering of data. Not something that you can prevent anymore then the thorough doubles checks that are made.

_________________
-Joshua
The dumb Boatswain's Mate who once did debate
Proud Coastie, Puddle Pirate, and Shallow Water Sailor


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:19 pm
Posts: 1070
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: NC
Hammy wrote:
You can't fix those. We are human after all. ;)

This comment is interesting, because using computers to do this sort of thing is actually a great way to eliminate error. Human involvement should be limited to entering raw data. And yes, there is potential for error in that process, but if that's why the slots were "miscalculated," they should have 2 or 3 people independently entering data.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that with multiple people independently entering data and a computer doing all the calculations from that point onward, there would still be 3 mistakes in one year, which means that there are very likely structural improvements that could be made.

Of course, we can't know for sure, since we don't know what exactly went wrong or even how AL points are calculated by NCFCA in the first place...

_________________
- Will

2010-11 | Freshman | Bardsley/King | IX | 13th at Regionals
2011-12 | Sophomore | Dovel/King | IX | Q'd to Nationals
2012-13 | Junior | Dovel/King | IX | 17th at Nationals
2013-14 | Senior | Dovel/King | IX | 5th at Nationals

Baylor University class of 2018


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:24 am 
Offline
T-Rothasaurus
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:48 am
Posts: 3114
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Washington
Maybe, just maybe, they should have done their error checking before handing out at large slots.
Or they could come out and say: "Oh darn we ducked this up real good. But it won't really kill us to allow three extra national competitors."

Yeah three mistakes out of a few hundred isn't bad, except that mistakes at this level cost money, time, and a lot of good will.

_________________
"The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done." - Wyman Manderly


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:18 am
Posts: 71
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: at a liberal rally, probably
Hammy wrote:
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Also, I don't buy that we can't fix it. This hasn't been a big problem is recent years past. The fact this is a problem now clearly shows that we can have a system where this isn't one.

Or maybe, just maybe, this was the first year that a slight error was made in the entering of data. Not something that you can prevent anymore then the thorough doubles checks that are made.


For the record, it's not the first time this sort of thing has happened. Other people have been similarly affected in past years.

_________________
| Region II |
| WSU '21 |


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:19 pm
Posts: 123
Home Schooled: Yes
Not to mention that mistakes like these could hurt overall confidence in the league and their calculations in particular because of discussions such as this. Also, as David said, maybe they should just allow the people they told wrong to go. Would allowing one more person in thematic throw off the balance of nationals?


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:42 am 
Offline
Mr. Grumpy
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:37 pm
Posts: 209
Home Schooled: Yes
Hammy wrote:
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Also, I don't buy that we can't fix it. This hasn't been a big problem is recent years past. The fact this is a problem now clearly shows that we can have a system where this isn't one.

Or maybe, just maybe, this was the first year that a slight error was made in the entering of data. Not something that you can prevent anymore then the thorough doubles checks that are made.


These errors were made in different regions. It's not like it was one error that affected multiple people. It was a series of them.

_________________
Graham Stacy:
NCFCA & Stoa Alumnus
Author: COG Debate
Coach: ResolvedFL - Sigma Society
USF - Class of '19 - Applied Mathematics


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:57 pm
Posts: 360
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Region 7
I really don't understand why at-large standings and the number of total slots have to be kept secret. Why not make the data for the top 50% of the competitors public after each tournament? Mistakes would be easily seen and corrected before the national level. Why not reveal the details of how data is entered?

_________________
Josh McCroskey


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:47 pm
Posts: 1377
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: H*wL*tt P*ck*rd muffins
Ginger Josh wrote:
Why not make the data for the top 50% of the competitors public after each tournament? Mistakes would be easily seen and corrected before the national level. Why not reveal the details of how data is entered?

For the same reason that they don't announce what the split was in finals. That's private information to be shared at the discretion of the competitors.

Also, I apologize for not making my point clearer. I wasn't saying that is was insignificant. I was saying that the statistics of how many times it messes up shows that it isn't a problem with the system itself, but rather human errors by people entering the information into the system. As such, I'm saying that y'all are coming down too hard on the system and the people entering information into the system because it's simply a human error that they can't really help. It happens. Plus, none of us actually know how all that information is dealt with, meaning that y'all are taking blind shots at the NCFCA staff when you don't even know what you're dealing with.

_________________
-Joshua
The dumb Boatswain's Mate who once did debate
Proud Coastie, Puddle Pirate, and Shallow Water Sailor


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:57 pm
Posts: 360
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Region 7
Hammy wrote:
Ginger Josh wrote:
Why not make the data for the top 50% of the competitors public after each tournament? Mistakes would be easily seen and corrected before the national level. Why not reveal the details of how data is entered?

For the same reason that they don't announce what the split was in finals. That's private information to be shared at the discretion of the competitors.

Final placings are not private information. Why should seeding information coming out of speech prelims be private? Why should debate prelim records be private? I can understand hiding the ballot information of those who did not place at the tournament, but otherwise I see no reason to keep at-large information private. Privacy also doesn't address the issue of slots. Why shouldn't we know going into regionals that there are 5 regular slots and 2 at-large slots in a given event? The secrecy just leaves the league open to accusations of finagling.

Hammy wrote:
Plus, none of us actually know how all that information is dealt with, meaning that y'all are taking blind shots at the NCFCA staff when you don't even know what you're dealing with.

But that's part of the problem. If the system were clearly understood, it could be fixed or exonerated. As it is, we don't know. The league is making itself vulnerable to criticism by not being open. I appreciate how much more open the league is now than when I started 6 years ago, but there is still a ways to go.

_________________
Josh McCroskey


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 5:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:50 pm
Posts: 391
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Falling at a 60° angle, defying physics
While there is still plenty of debate on this subject, I am curious to know what exactly reform-minded students would do to make this previously private information public. The most intuitive option seems to be to simply post the standings at issue on the NCFCA website (or something like Speechranks, but for NCFCA) but I'm wondering if anyone else had other possible alternatives. :)

_________________
Andrew

Barndt/Barndt | TACT, R10 | 2012-13
Barndt/Barndt | TACT, R10 | 2013-14
Barndt/Barndt | TACT, R10 | 2014-15
Barndt/Blacklock | Arete, R10 | 2015-16
Barndt/Cuddeback | R10 | 2016-17
Barndt/Wolf | SALT, R10 | 2017-18

JohnMarkPorter1 wrote:
I'm inclined to think like Andrew does.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 5:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:19 pm
Posts: 1070
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: NC
Hammy wrote:
I was saying that the statistics of how many times it messes up shows that it isn't a problem with the system itself, but rather human errors by people entering the information into the system. As such, I'm saying that y'all are coming down too hard on the system and the people entering information into the system because it's simply a human error that they can't really help. It happens.

This is not a terribly good attitude, and like I said earlier, there are structural changes that could dramatically reduce or even eliminate errors of this sort. For example, it is inevitable that some person will mistype when entering data, but if 2 or 3 people were independently assigned the same task, you could effectively do away with problematic errors. The probability of mistyping Joe Smith's HI placing is small but not small enough. However, the probability of 3 people independently mistyping the placing (and making the same typo) is practically zero.

And how do you know that NCFCA doesn't already do this, you ask? Because if they did, I don't think you'd see 3 errors in one season (especially since not all errors matter, that there were 3 errors with AL implications indicates that were many more that just didn't matter). And like Josh said, the fact that we don't know what they do to mitigate error is a problem in itself.

_________________
- Will

2010-11 | Freshman | Bardsley/King | IX | 13th at Regionals
2011-12 | Sophomore | Dovel/King | IX | Q'd to Nationals
2012-13 | Junior | Dovel/King | IX | 17th at Nationals
2013-14 | Senior | Dovel/King | IX | 5th at Nationals

Baylor University class of 2018


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:47 pm
Posts: 1377
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: H*wL*tt P*ck*rd muffins
kingwill wrote:
This is not a terribly good attitude, and like I said earlier, there are structural changes that could dramatically reduce or even eliminate errors of this sort. For example, it is inevitable that some person will mistype when entering data, but if 2 or 3 people were independently assigned the same task, you could effectively do away with problematic errors. The probability of mistyping Joe Smith's HI placing is small but not small enough. However, the probability of 3 people independently mistyping the placing (and making the same typo) is practically zero.

I agree, but that's only the first half of what I was saying. :) What I'm really getting at is that people shouldn't be attacking NCFCA in the way that they are over this. That first part was a supporting point.

_________________
-Joshua
The dumb Boatswain's Mate who once did debate
Proud Coastie, Puddle Pirate, and Shallow Water Sailor


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:47 pm 
Offline
Forerunner
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:45 am
Posts: 1090
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Locations are too mainstream
Hammy wrote:
kingwill wrote:
This is not a terribly good attitude, and like I said earlier, there are structural changes that could dramatically reduce or even eliminate errors of this sort. For example, it is inevitable that some person will mistype when entering data, but if 2 or 3 people were independently assigned the same task, you could effectively do away with problematic errors. The probability of mistyping Joe Smith's HI placing is small but not small enough. However, the probability of 3 people independently mistyping the placing (and making the same typo) is practically zero.

I agree, but that's only the first half of what I was saying. :) What I'm really getting at is that people shouldn't be attacking NCFCA in the way that they are over this. That first part was a supporting point.


As far as I can see, most people on this thread have great respect for NCFCA leadership and are not simply trying to "attack NCFCA."

_________________
NCFCA debate and speech alumni
Former homeschooler
Joel Thomas
Liberty University


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:49 pm 
Offline
I know not this "leverage" of which you speak.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:52 pm
Posts: 2285
Home Schooled: Yes
kingwill wrote:
Of course, we can't know for sure, since we don't know what exactly went wrong or even how AL points are calculated by NCFCA in the first place...

They have released the formula, but I have no idea if they've released the process.

Except, now that link is broken.

_________________
This account doesn't express the opinions of my employers and might not even express my own.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:19 pm
Posts: 1070
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: NC
Hammy: I agree, we shouldn't attack the NCFCA leadership. However, as I and others have illustrated, there are definitely grounds for criticism. I think that for the most part, people have been respectful in their criticism, so I would encourage you to not view all criticism as "attacking." And if you don't think that this criticism is warranted, I'd love to hear why you think that. For me, the case seems pretty clear: there are steps that NCFCA can and should take to reduce/eliminate error, but there is no indication that they are taking such steps. That's a problem.

_________________
- Will

2010-11 | Freshman | Bardsley/King | IX | 13th at Regionals
2011-12 | Sophomore | Dovel/King | IX | Q'd to Nationals
2012-13 | Junior | Dovel/King | IX | 17th at Nationals
2013-14 | Senior | Dovel/King | IX | 5th at Nationals

Baylor University class of 2018


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 7:01 pm
Posts: 160
Home Schooled: Yes
The biggest flaw with everyone saying "staff makes mistakes, they do good things for us, don't attack them" is that holding accountable ≠ attacking and disrespecting. Something that homeschool circles as a whole don't seem to understand.

_________________
Isaac Franklin

09-10 | Edmonds/Harris | Rainmakers | R3
10-11 | Edmonds/Harris | Rainmakers | R2
11-12 | Aldrich/Harris | Rainmakers | R2
12-13 | Bayliss/Harris | Rainmakers | R2


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 1:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 2441
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Omaha, NE
^^What Isaac said.
The Pumaman wrote:
While there is still plenty of debate on this subject, I am curious to know what exactly reform-minded students would do to make this previously private information public. The most intuitive option seems to be to simply post the standings at issue on the NCFCA website (or something like Speechranks, but for NCFCA) but I'm wondering if anyone else had other possible alternatives. :)

I'm assuming you mean records, speaker points, seedings, etc. Its actually fairly easy, and (not shockingly) the NCFCA/Stoa is the only league I know of that doesn't fully disclose all placings for all teams at all tournaments. Actually, they used to give them out in the NCFCA too, but only to coaches. It also isn't hard to figure it out without them disclosing anything. If you understand how powermatching works, its fairly simple to accurately predict almost all breaks by the end of round 6 and all seeds after awards. Again, no one outside the NCFCA considers any of this private information.

The way that most tournaments do it is to put the cum sheets in packets along with ballots. These sheets are generated by all the standard tab programs and include W/L, speaks, judge, and side for all teams for all rounds. Other larger tournaments email them to all the coaches after the tournament. It really is fairly simple and the tab room already has the capability to do it.

_________________
-Bryan
Co-Founder of Olympus Forensics

Google it, we're the second link that pops up. We're pretty proud of that.


Last edited by LocutusofBorg on Sun May 18, 2014 2:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 179 posts ]  Go to page Previous 14 5 6 7 8 9 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited