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Should NCFCA make specific reforms?
Yes 68%  68%  [ 30 ]
No 32%  32%  [ 14 ]
Total votes: 44
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
However, I think it still fails to address the central problem which is a lack of democratization. We should be able to vote in the board of directors. That would address all my major issues.

Because democracy magically solves every problem in every organization and setting.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
However, I think it still fails to address the central problem which is a lack of democratization. We should be able to vote in the board of directors. That would address all my major issues.

Because democracy magically solves every problem in every organization and setting.


If the problem is that I feel unrepresented and unheard, then yeah. It would solve those problems quite easily.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:14 am 
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Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Hammy wrote:
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
However, I think it still fails to address the central problem which is a lack of democratization. We should be able to vote in the board of directors. That would address all my major issues.

Because democracy magically solves every problem in every organization and setting.


If the problem is that I feel unrepresented and unheard, then yeah. It would solve those problems quite easily.

Have you ever tried expressing your grievances to the board? It actually does work.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:14 am 
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Hammy wrote:
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Hammy wrote:
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
However, I think it still fails to address the central problem which is a lack of democratization. We should be able to vote in the board of directors. That would address all my major issues.

Because democracy magically solves every problem in every organization and setting.


If the problem is that I feel unrepresented and unheard, then yeah. It would solve those problems quite easily.

Have you ever tried expressing your grievances to the board? It actually does work.


That's not exactly the point... Furthermore, I've seen enough Q&A's where ideas I think would be incredibly positive have been rejected. I don't need to wast my time.

I would note that my original definition of Democratization was more limited than I meant it to be. I think we should also have the power to vote personally on many of the league's decisions (such as what speech events to include, how to run events, ect.)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:29 am 
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Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
That's not exactly the point... Furthermore, I've seen enough Q&A's where ideas I think would be incredibly positive have been rejected. I don't need to wast my time.

I believe that the encouragement is to write up an idea and send it to the NCFCA board. Hardly squelching ideas.

Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
I would note that my original definition of Democratization was more limited than I meant it to be. I think we should also have the power to vote personally on many of the league's decisions (such as what speech events to include, how to run events, ect.)

On one hand that could be helpful, but on the other hand it could lead to a poor balance of speech categories based on individual interests and failed commitments rather than the overarching theme of incorporating most of the important skills needed.

Example: Parli in NCFCA. I have no doubt that if a vote were held that the students would overwhelmingly push it through, given the vote. But what a lot of students don't realize is the reason why we don't have Parli. We already have TP and Extemp which captures the values of Parli. It would be the pointless and wasteful doubling up of time and resources into skills that we are already teaching. Sure it would be fun and the students would love it, but pleasing students isn't what NCFCA is about.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:46 am 
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Hammy wrote:
I believe that the encouragement is to write up an idea and send it to the NCFCA board. Hardly squelching ideas.


So even if they publicly reject the ideas to our faces, they may accept it I just email them? I find that unlikely.

Hammy wrote:
On one hand that could be helpful, but on the other hand it could lead to a poor balance of speech categories based on individual interests and failed commitments rather than the overarching theme of incorporating most of the important skills needed.


Lots of things can happen. These potential fears prove little in light of the fact that many organizations operate successfully this way. Notably including some debate leagues. Tell someone in one of those leagues that you think the power to vote on proposals should be taken away and given exclusively to the board and they would give you a very strange look.

Hammy wrote:
Example: Parli in NCFCA. I have no doubt that if a vote were held that the students would overwhelmingly push it through, given the vote. But what a lot of students don't realize is the reason why we don't have Parli. We already have TP and Extemp which captures the values of Parli. It would be the pointless and wasteful doubling up of time and resources into skills that we are already teaching. Sure it would be fun and the students would love it, but pleasing students isn't what NCFCA is about.


Honestly, your opinion about Parli has very little credibility until you've actually done a Parli round. I don't think personal experience is necessary to judge everything. But in this case we've had a highschool league host parli competitions for four years now and the feedback has been near universally positive in many different ways. But this isn't the thread for this conversation, so I'll leave it here.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
So even if they publicly reject the ideas to our faces, they may accept it I just email them? I find that unlikely.

The only times that they have done that (to my memory) were with ridiculous ideas such as Duo Impromptu and powerpoint IOs. But that isn't a common occurrence.

Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Lots of things can happen. These potential fears prove little in light of the fact that many organizations operate successfully this way. Notably including some debate leagues. Tell someone in one of those leagues that you think the power to vote on proposals should be taken away and given exclusively to the board and they would give you a very strange look.

Do these other leagues have the educational quality of NCFCA? I highly doubt it.

Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Honestly, your opinion about Parli has very little credibility until you've actually done a Parli round. I don't think personal experience is necessary to judge everything. But in this case we've had a highschool league host parli competitions for four years now and the feedback has been near universally positive in many different ways. But this isn't the thread for this conversation, so I'll leave it here.

Good gravy, you missed the point. It doesn't matter what my opinion of Parli is, it comes down to the facts. Yes, it is a very well received event in the leagues that use it. Yes, it does teach a helpful skill set. But these skill sets are already present in NCFCA. And there is simply a limit to how many events the league can host. In light of that, Parli is not needed, students simply don't recognize that we already have Extemp and TP. They just want to have fun and a good time. The point isn't about Parli, the point is how the NCFCA leadership isn't affected by the whims of having a good time that the students are subject to. They can see through this with an un-bias viewpoint.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Masked Midnight wrote:
Anytime you give executive authority to any organization, said organization will take action in accordance with its interests; there is, simply, no such thing as a bipartisan panel with regards to anything.

What I meant by 'un-bias' was 'removed from the immaturity of the student population.' ;)

Masked Midnight wrote:
Parli offers some very important critical thinking skills that aren't available in either TP or Extemp (i.e. debating something on your feet, etc.).

Well you get that in TP if you don't have a neg on every single inkling of a case idea out there. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Masked Midnight wrote:
Well, it may be better to move organizational interest into the hands of those whom the organization serve. :)

Not when those whom they serve are teenagers.

Masked Midnight wrote:
Not on an extemp topic, generally, though.

Depends on the round.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:17 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
Masked Midnight wrote:
Well, it may be better to move organizational interest into the hands of those whom the organization serve. :)

Not when those whom they serve are teenagers.


What's wrong with Teenagers? I don't get the disdain for young people's opinions in many circles.

Quote:
Masked Midnight wrote:
Not on an extemp topic, generally, though.

Depends on the round.


Parli rounds can have very wide variety of topics. Topics broached neither by Extemp or Team Policy. Topics such as: The morality of an action is decided solely by its intentions. - Or scenario resolutions that place you backwards in time to argue from the standpoint of people in history. Furthermore, they make you change frequently. You're constantly having to consider a wide variety of ideas and defend them against other's argumentation. It just doesn't even compare to any other events. You say...

Quote:
It doesn't matter what my opinion of Parli is, it comes down to the facts.


However, your facts are simply wrong. I've heard Mrs. Hudson make exactly your claim numerous times and I've seen a Parli competitor never agree with her or even give that argument any credence.

Quote:
Do these other leagues have the educational quality of NCFCA? I highly doubt it.


Yes, yes they do. Don't throw stones until you've actually competed in them. Disregarding other groups simply because they're not your's is short sighted and poor form.

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Last edited by Crazy-Clubin'-People on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:52 pm 
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Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
What's wrong with Teenagers? I don't get the disdain for young people's opinions in many circles.

I believe the question should be: "What is right with Teenagers?" You truly think that teenagers are mature? You truly think that they have ample life experience? You truly think that they have the knowledge? "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
but the rod of discipline drives it far from him." Teenagers are children, foolish and insolent. Ask any parent about teenagers. They are in the process of turning into an adult, as such, they feel that they have all the answers, they want their opinions to be pushed to the top. They know that they are right and everyone else is wrong. This is one problem that I've observed with speech and debate. It gives "credibility" to teenagers who are not yet ready to handle the power of speech and debate. For some it is harmless, for others it is devastating to their way of thinking and bloats them with pride.

Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Parli rounds can have very wide variety of topics. Topics broached neither by Extemp or Team Policy. Topics such as: The morality of an action is decided solely by its intentions. - Or scenario resolutions that place you backwards in time to argue from the standpoint of people in history. Furthermore, they make you change frequently. You're constantly having to consider a wide variety of ideas and defend them against other's argumentation. It just doesn't even compare to any other events. You say...

I'll grant this one to you, it would most likely further augment the skill already contained in Extemp and TP, but nonetheless the skill still exists in seed form.

Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
I've heard Mrs. Hudson make exactly your claim numerous times and I've seen a Parli competitor agree with her or even give that argument any credence.

^What does this even mean?

Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Disregarding other groups simply because they're not your's is short sighted and poor form.

Remind me when I insinuated this?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:37 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Disregarding other groups simply because they're not your's is short sighted and poor form.

Remind me when I insinuated this?


Hammy wrote:
Do these other leagues have the educational quality of NCFCA? I highly doubt it.


You also conveniently ignored Graham's words of wisdom in the sentences prior.

Crazy-Clubin'-People wrote:
Yes, yes they do. Don't throw stones until you've actually competed in them.


I don't wish to enter fully into this debate, but I do want to respectfully point out Hammy that when you're discussing Parli, you are speaking from ignorance and a completely warped perspective which has brainwashed you into thinking Parli is bad and does not have different skill sets than TP and Extemp. You are completely, utterly, absolutely, thoroughly, 100%, in every possible way wrong. I'm sorry but there's no nice way to put that. You're not even allowed to being up evidence briefs in Parli. Parli has a very nuanced style which has worked well and helped hundreds of students be better and more articulate speakers. You are entitled to your opinion...but please stop self-righteously deriding other leagues and debate forms that you have never even tried or experienced for yourself. Your impudently treat new ideas and people's proposals - have an open mind, maybe you'll learn some new things from people who have indeed competed in other leagues and have tried Parli. At the very least, couch your language in terms like "it seems" and "it may" be like x, not "IT IS." I do the same when I'm discussing NCFCA and I even was in the league once. Times have significantly changed, yes, but you hopefully get my point. You're probably not intending to appear self-righteous and arrogant (you're a cool guy as far as I know :becool:), but you should reconsider your choice of words as, frankly, that's how you're coming across.

Also, while you do have valid points about teenagers...1 Timothy 4:12 much? Teenagers are people too ;P Stoa sets it up where each family gets a vote, so that may help solve your issue with teenagers potentially hijacking the league. The students who are directly involved in the league and are the reason the league exists should have a say in the organization's future, but should not wield undue influence. The solution to "too much student input" is not to completely shut off the valve, but to close it just a little so the overwhelming torrent turns into a steady stream.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:55 pm 
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I admittedly haven't read the last page or so, but while we're on the topic of various leagues, the following is a list of leagues I have had enough experience with to comfortably compare it to other leagues (asterisks are leagues I have competed in or coached):
NCFCA*
CCA
NFL
High school POFO*
College POFO*
NDPA* (team parli)
NDT/CEDA
NFA*
IPDA* (individual parli)

Every league has its strengths and weaknesses, which is fine. However, in my experience NCFCA and CCA are very far behind the others in both quality of debate and quality of educational value. It is true that most of the other leagues have a greater emphasis on spreading, which the NCFCA rejects, and that's fine. However, every league I competed in has a very large proportion of lay judges, forcing competitors to be adept at both spreading and speaking in a more conversational tone. There is a huge difference in the quality of a slow NFA/NPDA/IPDA round and a normal NCFCA round (the same is true of public school LD and POFO). There are many reasons why that is, but if I think the most relevant one is the NCFCA's belief that it is superior to everything and that the traditional way of debating is not only best, but the only viable way to do things. This leads to lack of innovation as the lowest tier teams simply copy what the higher tier teams are doing. Eventually, that copy becomes a mere shadow of what debate used to be. That is exactly what happened in R5.

So no, Hammy, the NCFCA is not the pinnacle of debate. In fact, and I say this from personal experience, it is a laughingstock to the outside world.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, and your critique of parli is just simply wrong. There's a reason why TPers and extempers are generally absolutely awful at parli for the first year or so. It teaches such a different set of skills they are barely even comparable. Actually, at Hillsdale we always taught novices before LD because parli is so much harder than LD (and, by extention, TP) that it is way easier to make the transition from parli to LD than LD to parli.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:22 pm 
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I am nodding in agreement at the posts of Graham and Evan. I am fairly convinced that parli has unique skills to master, and it would likely be beneficial to the NCFCA as a whole to adopt it as a third style of debate. Nobody has access to massive 20 page briefs when conversing with someone, say, at the coffee shop - and we won't have any prep time either when the other is done speaking. So while Team Policy and Lincoln Douglas debates do provide several extremely useful skills, they lack certain other skills that parliamentary debate teaches.

Hammy, as others have asked, if you have never experienced parliamentary debate, how can you warrant such claims like the ones you're making? Granted, I've only observed one parli round before (and it had to be cut short), but the fact that no one else who has actually debated parli agrees with you puts a much higher burden on you to prove your claims. And from what I can tell, even though I have very little experience with the parli format of debate, it doesn't seem anything like you make it out to be.

That being said, tournaments will likely have to be at least an extra day if not two more days longer. Assuming parli gets its own pattern (which seems like the most likely option), we're adding at least an hour to the tournament schedule per round of parli, and given the normal schedule of NCFCA tournaments, that's 6 rounds. So we're adding 6 hours already, and then we have outrounds, which will certainly vary by region, but let's say (given the NCFCA-style brackets) that we have 3 outrounds, which adds 3 more hours for a total of 9 extra hours per tournament. And that doesn't even include possible judge shortages, which have occurred before, without parli in NCFCA. Given how late many NCFCA tournaments run, this could be a major headache.

Possible benefits of parliamentary debate
  • Thinking quickly on your feet
  • Debate a vast array of topics
  • Real-world applicability
  • Possible others I am not listing

Possible drawbacks of parliamentary debate
  • Extra day per tournament
  • Possible others I am not listing

I don't feel quite as strongly about this issue as others who have actually done parli and enjoy it, so while I do believe parli would be beneficial for the NCFCA, I probably won't be an active member of the Parliamentary Debate For NCFCA movement. At the end of the day though, it sure seems to me that the benefits of adding parliamentary debate to the NCFCA outweigh the drawbacks. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Alrighty, I think things need some clarifying here. First off, no worries Evan, I understand you position and points completely and they would be applicable if that is what I was saying. Y'all have seriously started a straw man on my point about Parli. I only used Parli as a small example which was inflated to take over the position of the real argument that I was talking about. (a straw man)

After looking back at what I wrote earlier, I can see why y'all would take my comments as raging against Parli, and I apologize for that. My intention wasn't to bash Parli, but rather to point out the lack of understanding in students. Maybe Parli isn't the best example, but it was palatable for my analogy. My contention was simply that the decision making shouldn't be left in the hands of students due to their lack of perception. I will fully agree that, yes, Parli does contain extreme in depth focusing and building of certain skills that are not carried over by Extemp and TP. However, these are expansions that I would argue are not needed in NCFCA specifically. NCFCA is hardly, and never should be treated, as an 'end all' to developing our tools of public speaking in debate. I believe that it does a fabulous job of capturing a very wide range of skills into seed form and presents them to the students in the many different events. What I'm saying is that the general concept (but for sure not everything) of Parli is captured in Extemp in TP. I did word this wrong before, and I apologize. But while yes, Parli could be beneficial in expanding the skills even more and even introducing some new skills, I'd argue that what NCFCA has lines up with it's purpose. That enough of the skills expanded on in Parli are captured in TP and Extemp and that is enough for a high school, homeschooled debate league. We aren't going to master debate in these leagues. I'd say that this lines up perfectly with what Bryan said. Sure, in the big picture, NCFCA is probably behind in the 'quality of debate.' But I'd say that NCFCA, with its wide range of events introduces enough already without the in depth skill treatment of Parli. It isn't an end all. That's why I'd say that Parli isn't needed in NCFCA.

But regardless of my thoughts on Parli, my main argument which was only really addressed slightly by Evan, was of decision making being left to the students. So @Evan: I get what the verse is saying, but it isn't really promoting that youth should be given prominent decision making positions. Rather that, even though we are young, we shouldn't let it pull us down. We should still set an example of wisdom to others, providing that we can conquer the maturity levels. Plus, to be absolutely fair, Paul was writing to Timothy and Timothy (while young) was most likely not a teenager. As for the family vote, it has plenty of potential and NCFCA does use it when voting for resolutions or State Reps. But really unless it's a coaching family, it often will come down to the kids. That's how it's worked with the resolution decision in our house and many others that I know.

So yeah, I hope that clarified my position. :) (btw, congrats on the promotion, Evan)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:18 pm 
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I'm going into my fifth year of debate. I've done both LD and TP, not extemp... but doing Parli for the first time I was able to pick it up pretty well and really enjoyed it after competing in a camp tournament. I like it because it focuses on the debate itself while still allowing you to learn things.

I don't think that what is there to gain and learn in Parli is encompassed in Extemp and TP.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:33 pm 
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Thank you for your explanation Joshua. My sincere apologies for grabbing my pitchfork and angrily torching the straw man :lol:

Hammy wrote:
So @Evan: I get what the verse is saying, but it isn't really promoting that youth should be given prominent decision making positions. Rather that, even though we are young, we shouldn't let it pull us down. We should still set an example of wisdom to others, providing that we can conquer the maturity levels. Plus, to be absolutely fair, Paul was writing to Timothy and Timothy (while young) was most likely not a teenager. As for the family vote, it has plenty of potential and NCFCA does use it when voting for resolutions or State Reps. But really unless it's a coaching family, it often will come down to the kids. That's how it's worked with the resolution decision in our house and many others that I know.


Fair enough. My experience with the family vote is different, but I cannot speak for the Stoa or NCFCA leagues at large. It would be impossible for either league to micromanage who exactly does the voting or makes the decisions for the family vote. Still I do hold what I said earlier:

Evan wrote:
The students who are directly involved in the league and are the reason the league exists should have a say in the organization's future, but should not wield undue influence. The solution to "too much student input" is not to completely shut off the valve, but to close it just a little so the overwhelming torrent turns into a steady stream.


So maybe perhaps we disagree on implementation of those ideas, but I hope we would agree to the general principle that students deserve a say in how their league is operated, but should not hold too much power. It's kind of like the principle behind 18-year-olds voting: if they can get shipped to Vietnam, they should be able to vote.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:56 pm 
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Evan wrote:
Fair enough. My experience with the family vote is different, but I cannot speak for the Stoa or NCFCA leagues at large. It would be impossible for either league to micromanage who exactly does the voting or makes the decisions for the family vote. Still I do hold what I said earlier:

Sounds good. :)

Evan wrote:
o maybe perhaps we disagree on implementation of those ideas, but I hope we would agree to the general principle that students deserve a say in how their league is operated, but should not hold too much power. It's kind of like the principle behind 18-year-olds voting: if they can get shipped to Vietnam, they should be able to vote.

Something like that. At the end of the day, NCFCA still is an outlet of homeschooling and homeschooling has never been dictated by the students who participate in it. The parents are the ones who make the choices in what curriculum, what books, what subjects, etc. of what the students are put through in their education. Now of course, our parents will almost always ask us for our opinions on what we want to take, which can affect their decision. And I feel that the same standard should be put into place in NCFCA. (like it is) The students can certainly state their preferences and what they desire, but not much power of decision should be given to them.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 3:24 am
Posts: 769
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Alabama
Hammy wrote:

Evan wrote:
o maybe perhaps we disagree on implementation of those ideas, but I hope we would agree to the general principle that students deserve a say in how their league is operated, but should not hold too much power. It's kind of like the principle behind 18-year-olds voting: if they can get shipped to Vietnam, they should be able to vote.

Something like that. At the end of the day, NCFCA still is an outlet of homeschooling and homeschooling has never been dictated by the students who participate in it. The parents are the ones who make the choices in what curriculum, what books, what subjects, etc. of what the students are put through in their education. Now of course, our parents will almost always ask us for our opinions on what we want to take, which can affect their decision. And I feel that the same standard should be put into place in NCFCA. (like it is) The students can certainly state their preferences and what they desire, but not much power of decision should be given to them.


While I get what you're saying, I think you're missing the balance that a system like Stoa's has. Yes, the competitors get to vote on many major decisions, but ultimately they are only choosing from among the options given to them by leadership. Like in NCFCA now, the only rez choices to choose from are those presented by NCFCA leadership. A Stoa-esque model doesn't give teenagers free reign over every part of the organization, it just gives them more say in the competition that they participate in.

_________________
- Brennan Herring (Team Policy Coach, Catalyst Speech and Debate)

Ethos is also pretty cool, you should check it out.


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