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 Post subject: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:19 pm 
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Alright guys Topical Counterplans (specifically in NCFCA TP)

General judge bias, effectiveness, knowledge of, and opinions on them throughout the league?

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2013/2014 STOA Pickman/Tant2.0 TP and Parli
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2015/2016 NCFCA Abell/Tant TP. STOA: Parli Myhre/Tant, TP, Myhre/Tant


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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:41 pm 
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Here comes the inevitable heated debate over Topical counterplans... Watch and see....

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:14 pm 
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Yes oh yes. I cant wait for it to happen XD

But seriously, I want general demographics and judging biases as well as like what different clubs teach regarding them.

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2010/2011 STOA Individual Policy
2011/2012 STOA Pickman/Tant TP
2012/2013 STOA Pickman/Tant2.0 TP and Parli
2013/2014 STOA Pickman/Tant2.0 TP and Parli
2014/2015 STOA Abell/Tant Parli, LD, IP, NCFCA LD
2015/2016 NCFCA Abell/Tant TP. STOA: Parli Myhre/Tant, TP, Myhre/Tant


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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:18 pm 
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TopicalCPs4thewin wrote:
General judge bias, effectiveness, knowledge of, and opinions on them throughout the league?

Experienced judges are probably biased against them, inexperienced judges don't necessarily care. They are as effective as you are at effectively communicating them to judges. I will run them and have won with them, but have no preference for topical or non-topical CPs. Topical CPs seem to make more sense to me though.

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:24 pm 
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TopicalCPs4thewin wrote:
Alright guys Topical Counterplans (specifically in NCFCA TP)

General judge bias, effectiveness, knowledge of, and opinions on them throughout the league?

lol michael

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:58 pm 
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General rule: never use them unless you really really really have no other options (which is likely not to happen for your entire debate career.) I have never run one.

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:02 pm 
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If you plan on using them, ask your judge before the round. But I generally agree with Cyberknight- they're not the best way to make a neg.


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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:48 am 
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I ran eight or nine or so during my time... I think I ended up winning all but one. Experienced judges tend to be equally biased (a lot of experienced judges are ex-NFL and therefore all in favor of them) - but even then, I've only had one (in an outround, so it didn't affect the decision) vote aff only because we ran one.

North Texas clubs are generally against them, south Texas clubs are generally mediocre towards them, although there is a club in Houston that's totally okay with them, last I heard.

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:58 am 
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Novice year, second tournament ever. We ran against a case very similar to our own. We ran a topical CP (which was more like a PIC) and the judge checked the Aff box on the ballot in the 2AC... in front of everyone.

He also threw his hands up and gave us squinty eyed looks.

His RFD: "Don't run a topical CP"

This was a coach in our league who had considerable respect from many parents. I had none for him after that round.

Afterwards, I furiously binge-researched CP theory and, in my poor little novice point of view (for I was a novice of the "poor" and "little" variety) I thought there was certainly nothing wrong with topical CPs.

I've since come to the conclusion that topical CPs are invalid, but a) I'm also of the mindset that counterplans aren't valid in general, theory-wise, and b) I'm not looking to debate that in this thread. XD

We have only run a CP once since then. It wasn't topical and we lost with it :P But another team won with the same CP on the same case against the same team. So... idk.

We've also won against topical CPs every time. (Sorry. Not trying to brag or anything. We haven't hit that many of them, anyways)


I guess what I'm trying to say is, in our region, they're generally a no-no. The more inexperienced a judge is, and the less capable your opponent is of explaining CP theory, the better your chances. But if the team knows what to say, or the judge has a preconceived notion, then you're gonna have a rough go of it. But that's my personal experience.

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:23 am 
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I'm 2-1 with topical counterplans...@y-man23 was my one loss. :|

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:32 am 
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I honestly don't understand why people bother to run CPs. There are like SO MANY arguments against every case, it doesn't really seem necessary. I've never once been temped to run one myself, because it usually means I couldn't run any INH or SIG, which I love to run and are often super powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:04 am 
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Cyberknight wrote:
I honestly don't understand why people bother to run CPs. There are like SO MANY arguments against every case, it doesn't really seem necessary. I've never once been temped to run one myself, because it usually means I couldn't run any INH or SIG, which I love to run and are often super powerful.


That depends on how squirrely you want to go. Personally I'd say that you can bring up any and every argument that you would bring up in any situation, counterplan or no, by simply giving the judge a few different looks at alternatives to the affirmative case (including the current system) rather than tying the negative team to defending the current system and the current system only, no ifs ands or buts. I'd say, like, "If the problem existed, the affirmative team's plan is the worst of the potential solutions to it."

We had a team in R5 that ran a counterplan every negative round, and random cases straight from the source on their affirmative rounds. They were 1 ballot away from making nationals. It can happen. :)

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:11 pm 
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I totally adhere to the idea of parametrics (sorry MSD; it turns out your blog posts convinced me of this position :P ). Thus in my accounting, a "topical counterplan" is a misnomer--by the time the 1NC rolls around, it is no longer topical.

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:57 pm 
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always run topical counterplans even if you don't need one

there was this novice team that ran topical counterplans every tournament even on aff and they didn't win as much but the judges were biased

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:16 pm 
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There are two common interpretations of what debate is.

1. Debate is a hypothetical discussion in which fiat power is allotted for the sake of discussing what could be. In order to limit the discussion, a resolution is put into place. One team is assigned to affirm the resolution and the other is assigned to negate the resolution. Under this interpretation it is simply not within Negative's fiat power to make a topical reform. Such an act would denote them as affirming the resolution and would cost them their position and the debate round itself.

2. Debate is an allusion to the counsels of a governing body. (in most cases this is the United States Federal Government) The debaters are hypothetical supreme rulers of all branches and are trying to determine the best course of action regarding the topic of the day (the resolution). Thus, it is perfectly plausible that the Negative team can present a topical counterplan because that could happen in the real world and it still meets the goals of the debate round which is to determine the best course of action. However, take note that under this interpretation non-topical counterplans are not legitimate as the supreme USFG doesn't hold power outside of their jurisdiction.

Both interpretations are plausible and acceptable. However, both cannot exist in the same debate round and thus the true illegitimate counterplan would be a mutation of a topical and non-topical plan in the same mandates.

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08-09 | Half-Timer | Verdict | R8
09-10 | Timer | Verdict | R8
10-11 | Folkert/Folkert | Verdict | R8
11-12 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
12-13 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
13-14 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
14-15 | Folkert/Porter | Arx Axiom | R8
15-16 | Doto/Folkert | Verdict | R8


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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:39 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
I'm 2-1 with topical counterplans...@y-man23 was my one loss. :|

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:44 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
There are two common interpretations of what debate is.

1. Debate is a hypothetical discussion in which fiat power is allotted for the sake of discussing what could be. In order to limit the discussion, a resolution is put into place. One team is assigned to affirm the resolution and the other is assigned to negate the resolution. Under this interpretation it is simply not within Negative's fiat power to make a topical reform. Such an act would denote them as affirming the resolution and would cost them their position and the debate round itself.

2. Debate is an allusion to the counsels of a governing body. (in most cases this is the United States Federal Government) The debaters are hypothetical supreme rulers of all branches and are trying to determine the best course of action regarding the topic of the day (the resolution). Thus, it is perfectly plausible that the Negative team can present a topical counterplan because that could happen in the real world and it still meets the goals of the debate round which is to determine the best course of action. However, take note that under this interpretation non-topical counterplans are not legitimate as the supreme USFG doesn't hold power outside of their jurisdiction.

Both interpretations are plausible and acceptable. However, both cannot exist in the same debate round and thus the true illegitimate counterplan would be a mutation of a topical and non-topical plan in the same mandates.


To be honest, there are probably 50 different workable interpretations of what debate is. They might be uncommon but they aren't wrong. If you want to run a Whole Res case, fine. 5-case AJAC? Sure. If it makes sense and convinces the judge, kudos to you for thinking outside the box. Some interpretations are less successful than others. Some aren't as educational. None of them are "wrong."

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:11 am 
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Quote:
2. Debate is an allusion to the counsels of a governing body. (in most cases this is the United States Federal Government) The debaters are hypothetical supreme rulers of all branches and are trying to determine the best course of action regarding the topic of the day (the resolution). Thus, it is perfectly plausible that the Negative team can present a topical counterplan because that could happen in the real world and it still meets the goals of the debate round which is to determine the best course of action. However, take note that under this interpretation non-topical counterplans are not legitimate as the supreme USFG doesn't hold power outside of their jurisdiction.

Right, but this interpretation ignores the fact that there's a resolution at all. It also ignores the fact that the Judge is voting FOR THE RESOLUTION or AGAINST THE RESOLUTION by voting Aff or Neg (unless there's some abuse on one side or the other).

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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:03 am 
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Cyberknight wrote:
Quote:
2. Debate is an allusion to the counsels of a governing body. (in most cases this is the United States Federal Government) The debaters are hypothetical supreme rulers of all branches and are trying to determine the best course of action regarding the topic of the day (the resolution). Thus, it is perfectly plausible that the Negative team can present a topical counterplan because that could happen in the real world and it still meets the goals of the debate round which is to determine the best course of action. However, take note that under this interpretation non-topical counterplans are not legitimate as the supreme USFG doesn't hold power outside of their jurisdiction.

Right, but this interpretation ignores the fact that there's a resolution at all. It also ignores the fact that the Judge is voting FOR THE RESOLUTION or AGAINST THE RESOLUTION by voting Aff or Neg (unless there's some abuse on one side or the other).

Right, and I tend to disagree with this second interpretation, but most of the time I would accept it in a debate round. But bear in mind that this is the only plausible explanation for Parametrics. Parametrics in of itself is a laughable theory with no precedent or grounding in debate. In order to reach it you have to make a slight jump in logic which lands you in the world of the USFG and thus, real world policy making which justifies Parametrics.

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08-09 | Half-Timer | Verdict | R8
09-10 | Timer | Verdict | R8
10-11 | Folkert/Folkert | Verdict | R8
11-12 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
12-13 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
13-14 | Folkert/Light | Verdict | R8
14-15 | Folkert/Porter | Arx Axiom | R8
15-16 | Doto/Folkert | Verdict | R8


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 Post subject: Re: TOPICAL COUNTERPLANS
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:18 am 
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I've seen a lot of teams run a flawless topical CP and the judge just voted against them because they didn't like them.

I'd advise against them despite how fun and creative they can be.

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