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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:33 am 
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I'm confused with bankruptcy stuff. Someone explain to me what this case is supposed to do.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:03 pm 
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jacksonmin wrote:
I'm confused with bankruptcy stuff. Someone explain to me what this case is supposed to do.

I don't know the case specifically, but I do know the topic. There's two primary ways you can file for personal bankruptcy--Chapter 7 and Chapter 13. Chapter 7 is the "easier" way--it flat out eliminates some types of debt. Chapter 13 requires you to make payments on that debt. In most cases, Chapter 7 is going to be preferable to the debtor.

The means test determines whether or not you can file under Chapter 7. If you make more than the median income, you're not going to qualify. Additionally, if you have more than a certain amount of disposable income, you're not going to qualify. (This is determined by the courts basically looking at your finances and saying "hey, how much is the ordinary person going to have to spend in this person's situation, and how much are they going to have left over?")

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:49 pm 
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Sharkfin wrote:
Additionally, if you have more than a certain amount of disposable income, you're not going to qualify. (This is determined by the courts basically looking at your finances and saying "hey, how much is the ordinary person going to have to spend in this person's situation, and how much are they going to have left over?")

So the harms (for the case) would be that judges still allow high income people to file chapter 7?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:27 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
Sharkfin wrote:
Additionally, if you have more than a certain amount of disposable income, you're not going to qualify. (This is determined by the courts basically looking at your finances and saying "hey, how much is the ordinary person going to have to spend in this person's situation, and how much are they going to have left over?")

So the harms (for the case) would be that judges still allow high income people to file chapter 7?

Presumably the plan is to allow higher-income folks to file chapter 7... I couldn't find a plan advocate in a few minutes of searching so I don't know what the harms would be, but it's probably just something along the lines of "forcing people to file under chapter 13 does unnecessary harm to people's financial futures."

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:57 pm 
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That could be a plan text possibly, but I know for a fact that the team running this is doing something different. Their harm is that "rich people are gaming the system." So I'm guessing their harm is actually that too many people are qualifying for Chapter 7 benefits even though they are not poor and shouldn't qualify.

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 2:27 am 
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Cyberknight wrote:
That could be a plan text possibly, but I know for a fact that the team running this is doing something different. Their harm is that "rich people are gaming the system." So I'm guessing their harm is actually that too many people are qualifying for Chapter 7 benefits even though they are not poor and shouldn't qualify.


How would abolishing the means test solve this though? Isn't the test intended to determine who qualifies for Chapter 7?

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 3:19 am 
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NatashaChernyavsky wrote:
How would abolishing the means test solve this though? Isn't the test intended to determine who qualifies for Chapter 7?

Okay, here's how it works. If you have below the median income, you automatically qualify for chapter 7. If you are above the median income, you have to take the means test. If you pass the means test, you can qualify for chapter 7. Otherwise, you are ineligible.

By abolishing the means test, Aff ensures that everyone who falls above the median level will automatically be ineligible for chapter 7, solving their harm.

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:28 pm 
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Cyberknight wrote:
Okay, here's how it works. If you have below the median income, you automatically qualify for chapter 7. If you are above the median income, you have to take the means test. If you pass the means test, you can qualify for chapter 7. Otherwise, you are ineligible.


Lol no everybody has to take means test, above or below median income.

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 3:07 pm 
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Haha, really? Okay, never mind. XD What I heard was false.

Why does this (https://www.justice.gov/ust/means-testing) say that MOST people have to take the means test then? Who doesn't have to take it?

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 5:23 pm 
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I'm so confused. If nobody means tests. Why abolish it?

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 5:52 pm 
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Ben was saying that everyone means tests, not that no one does.

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 6:48 pm 
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http://bankruptcy.findlaw.com/chapter-7 ... -test.html

Under the Bankruptcy Protection Act of 2005 the means test was required for most people. The only exceptions (that this definition put forward) are for either veterans who incurred debt while on active duty or for people who incurred the majority of their debt while operating a business.

So what, anyone can file for chapter 7 under the case?

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:49 pm 
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Cyberknight wrote:
Why does this (https://www.justice.gov/ust/means-testing) say that MOST people have to take the means test then? Who doesn't have to take it?


Hammy wrote:
Under the Bankruptcy Protection Act of 2005 the means test was required for most people. The only exceptions (that this definition put forward) are for either veterans who incurred debt while on active duty or for people who incurred the majority of their debt while operating a business.


True, veterans who incurred debt on active duty don't have to do the means test (but obviously that's an extraordinarily small subset of people). And even with them, they still would need to fill out the means test form enough to say that they don't need to fill out the form. So individuals for all practical purposes always take the means test. "[P]eople who incurred the majority of their debt while operating a business" are basically businesses that one person ran.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 1:20 am 
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MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:
they still would need to fill out the means test form enough to say that they don't need to fill out the form. So individuals for all practical purposes always take the means test.

I'm not sure if this is true. My source states that if they meet either criterion (military or small business) they file directly for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. Nothing is said about still taking the Means Test. Also, I should mention that the Means Test is a bit more than simply filling out a form. See my earlier source describing the two steps of the test. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:28 am 
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Hammy wrote:
MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:
they still would need to fill out the means test form enough to say that they don't need to fill out the form. So individuals for all practical purposes always take the means test.

I'm not sure if this is true. My source states that if they meet either criterion (military or small business) they file directly for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. Nothing is said about still taking the Means Test. Also, I should mention that the Means Test is a bit more than simply filling out a form. See my earlier source describing the two steps of the test. :)


Inevitably FindLaw's explanation is less than fully compete. Even though they may be a veteran they still have to assert that in some way in lieu of the means test. To be specific this is the Statement of Exemption from Presumption of Abuse Under § 707(b)(2), as stated on Form 122A—1. The business debt exception 1) means that it is essentially a business not a person filing in that scenario and 2) is very rare, see the AO's judicial caseload stats. Source: me, I work for a bankruptcy attorney filling out bankruptcy petitions and "do the means test" multiple times a week.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:42 am 
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Ok, it's a small number. That's cool, but those are still the exemptions to the means test. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:43 am 
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Source: me, I work for a bankruptcy attorney filling out bankruptcy petitions and "do the means test" multiple times a week.

I'm guessing this is a joke? :P

Also, question. If it's true that everyone has to take the means test, then what does your plan do besides abolishing the means test? What do you replace it with to determine who files for chapter 7 or chapter 11?

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:15 am 
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Cyberknight wrote:
I'm guessing this is a joke? :P


Actually it's not a joke at all, it is genuinely, 100% true.

Cyberknight wrote:
Also, question. If it's true that everyone has to take the means test, then what does your plan do besides abolishing the means test? What do you replace it with to determine who files for chapter 7 or chapter 11?


Aha, wouldn't you like to know. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:46 pm 
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MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:
Source: me, I work for a bankruptcy attorney filling out bankruptcy petitions and "do the means test" multiple times a week.


^^Aff case goalz. I hit this case and am still clueless. I really, really, really would like to know ;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:30 pm 
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MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:

Aha, wouldn't you like to know. :twisted:

Ooooh, closed policy. I like it. :)

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