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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:48 am 
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Cyberknight wrote:
Also, question. If it's true that everyone has to take the means test, then what does your plan do besides abolishing the means test? What do you replace it with to determine who files for chapter 7 or chapter 11?


I always thought the issue was chapter 7 v. chapter 13 filing...is it 11?

Aha, wouldn't you like to know. :twisted:[/quote]

Yes!:) But in actuality how does this solve for anything? Are people being harmed because they have to take the means test? Or is there another test that is being implemented in order to determine filing?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:00 am 
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NatashaChernyavsky wrote:
I always thought the issue was chapter 7 v. chapter 13 filing...is it 11?

You're right, my bad. Most people who don't qualify for chapter 7 go to 13. I think there are rare circumstances in which you can go to chapter 11 though...can't remember.

NatashaChernyavsky wrote:
Yes!:) But in actuality how does this solve for anything? Are people being harmed because they have to take the means test? Or is there another test that is being implemented in order to determine filing?

I think Aff's harm is that rich people are gaming the system by making themselves look poorer than they really are, and thus getting chapter 7 when they really shouldn't.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:11 am 
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Cyberknight wrote:
NatashaChernyavsky wrote:
I always thought the issue was chapter 7 v. chapter 13 filing...is it 11?

You're right, my bad. Most people who don't qualify for chapter 7 go to 13. I think there are rare circumstances in which you can go to chapter 11 though...can't remember.

NatashaChernyavsky wrote:
Yes!:) But in actuality how does this solve for anything? Are people being harmed because they have to take the means test? Or is there another test that is being implemented in order to determine filing?

I think Aff's harm is that rich people are gaming the system by making themselves look poorer than they really are, and thus getting chapter 7 when they really shouldn't.


Okay I think I figured out what the harms might actually be: "You can think of the means test as a debtors’ prison, erected by creditors and designed to lock you in debt and either keep you from filing bankruptcy or force you into a Chapter 13 payment plan." From THE BREWER LAW FIRM, 2012

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2013-2014 Chernyavsky/Chernyavsky
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2015-2016 Calcamuggio/Chernyavsky (Q'd to Nats)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:22 am 
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*chortles*

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:27 am 
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MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:
*chortles*

Would you mind enlightening me? :)

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Natasha Chernyavsky, Region V
2010-2011 Chernyavsky/Irey
2011-2012 Chernyavsky/Reid
2012-2013 Brown/Chernyavsky
2013-2014 Chernyavsky/Chernyavsky
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2015-2016 Calcamuggio/Chernyavsky (Q'd to Nats)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:44 am 
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I know for a fact that the team that ORIGINALLY ran this case ran it with a harm that rich people were gaming the system and getting more than they deserved.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:53 pm 
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This is my take on it: The means test is hopelessly complex and flawed, allowing those who should be in chapter 13 (which requires debt repayment) to take advantage of loopholes and file in chapter 7, and forcing those who should be able to discharge their debts (which chapter 7 is geared towards) into chapter 13. Before the means test, the trustee person would determine if a person was abusing the system (abuse is defined as filing in chapter 7 to discharge debts, when future income could provide for debt repayment under chapter 13) The means test measures if a person is earning more than the median amount for their state (determined by their last 6 months of income) and disposable income. If a person fails the means test (they earn too much) they are likely going to be pushed into chapter 13. (where they must repay their debts with future income) Without judicial discretion and with the means test, their circumstances (like if they lost their job) are not taken into account. Many who are forced in chapter 13 don't actually succeed in repaying debt. (because they shouldn't have been classified as chapter 13 in the first place) After failing chapter 13, many have to go back to chapter 7. Neither creditors nor debtors are helped. The means test is also costly: People are filing for bankruptcy less often since the reform, (because lawyer fees are costly) leaving them in insolvency. A similar amount of people are filing for chapter 7 vs 13 as before, showing that the means test didn't force that many abusers to chapter 13.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:31 pm 
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In other words, leave it to court discretion as to whether chapter 7 or 13 should be upheld?

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