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 Post subject: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:45 am 
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Last year my partner and I only split the negative. But this year we would like to try shell and extend more. What is the best way to write a brief to shell and extend. What are some pros's and con's to shelling.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:51 pm 
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AFF Spreading - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3351
Judges Preference - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1873
Judges Preference - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7740
Judges Preference - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6920
Mechanics of Shell-and-extend - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3822
Pros and Cons - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4725
Pros and Cons - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2929

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Shell and extend is beast. It seems to work best when you're prepped, though.

And against some cases.... ::ahemJVAahem:: it doesn't work as well as you might think it would...

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:11 pm 
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thehomeschooler wrote:
And against some cases.... ::ahemJVAahem:: it doesn't work as well as you might think it would...

Why is that?

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:21 pm 
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thehomeschooler wrote:
Shell and extend is beast. It seems to work best when you're prepped, though.

S&E is awesome. It allows debaters to get into the third and sometimes even the fourth line of argumentation. It often brings more depth and clash to the round, which really makes debate much more fun.
The biggest consequence I see is more preparation is needed to execute a clean shell and extension. But if you do it right, it's an absolutely beautiful sight.

thehomeschooler wrote:
against some cases.... ::ahemJVAahem:: it doesn't work as well as you might think it would...

I beg to differ.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Shelling is a wonderful idea, but it isn't always feasible. I'll elaborate more later.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:03 pm 
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bigsister23 wrote:
thehomeschooler wrote:
And against some cases.... ::ahemJVAahem:: it doesn't work as well as you might think it would...

Why is that?

Daniel and I experienced this twice at the tourny the other day. We were like: "Oh NOEZ!!! Bollinger/Martin and Rentschler/Schirmer and doing S&E :o ". And then we were like: "Uuuuhhh. :? Okaaay... :) "

The reason it doesn't work as well IMO is because no matter how much you shell in the 1N, it's really easy for the 2A to address it. That's just how JVA and the args against it work. Then, when the 2NC and 1NR try to extend.......they aren't really extending anything. Most of the arguments have already been addressed, and the few that will remain debateable throughout the round are really easy for the 1AR to group and.....destroy. I thought I would be loaded in both my 1ARs. They were actually easier than when the other team split the neg. If you don't want to take it from me, that's fine :)
Kaki wrote:
S&E is awesome. It allows debaters to get into the third and sometimes even the fourth line of argumentation. It often brings more depth and clash to the round, which really makes debate much more fun.

Oh yeah, certianly. But if your initial "shell" (the 1N) is crappy, then you're pretty much screwed. I find that I must take some time to prep the shell in order to prevent it from being "crappy". I'm sure experience will help deal with that as well...
Kaki wrote:
The biggest consequence I see is more preparation is needed to execute a clean shell and extension. But if you do it right, it's an absolutely beautiful sight.

This is true.

And I must now say something in regards to the first part of this post: The JVA rounds in which S&E are used are certainly more interesting and generally....better. As Reagan said, you get to go into 3rd and 4th-line responses. I'm just making the point that while S&E usually puts more pressure on the affirmative team, it has thus far not been the case for my JVA case.
Kaki wrote:
I beg to differ.

See above. I haz warrantz.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:40 pm 
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I didn't really discover the power of shell and extend until last year when I wrote a negative brief against my own case (nuclear power). It ended up having 18 individual 1NC shell arguments, 15 of which were DA's. The awesome part of that brief was that we actually had two levels of shells for some arguments. Our terrorism DA, for example, was composed of a generic "terrorism" shell for the 1NC, followed by four unique 2NC extension shells that each posited a particular kind of terrorist attack. Then the 1NR could pull out the second level of extensions, leaving the 1AR to respond to four individual terrorism DA's that we had spent three speeches developing (in addition to our other arguments). I just wish we could have hit our case more often.

That said, I definitely agree that shell and extend doesn't work against all cases. I've been in lots of situations where (using S&E) all the arguments I had could be completely developed in the 1NC, leaving my partner with no extensions to run in his speech. In that situation, I think splitting the neg works better because you can get out more analysis per argument before the aff has a chance to respond.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:05 pm 
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thehomeschooler wrote:
bigsister23 wrote:
thehomeschooler wrote:
And against some cases.... ::ahemJVAahem:: it doesn't work as well as you might think it would...

Why is that?

Daniel and I experienced this twice at the tourny the other day. We were like: "Oh NOEZ!!! Bollinger/Martin and Rentschler/Schirmer and doing S&E :o ". And then we were like: "Uuuuhhh. :? Okaaay... :) "

The reason it doesn't work as well IMO is because no matter how much you shell in the 1N, it's really easy for the 2A to address it. That's just how JVA and the args against it work. Then, when the 2NC and 1NR try to extend.......they aren't really extending anything. Most of the arguments have already been addressed, and the few that will remain debateable throughout the round are really easy for the 1AR to group and.....destroy. I thought I would be loaded in both my 1ARs. They were actually easier than when the other team split the neg. If you don't want to take it from me, that's fine :)


hehehe, I thought it worked pretty well. :P just kidding, ya'll are awesome and i'm not really sure how we won that round.

Still, shell every round. Even if you aren't prepared, even without evidence. You should still be able to fill your time with analysis, even without normal amounts of evidence. That being said, we always plan on doing shell, and only will scrap it if the 1NC isn't good. Event if you don't have any more analysis/evid to add to your argument, then go line by line on the aff responses and show how their warrants don't make any sense. Use shell/extend, it works, and it will make your neg more cohesive because you and your partner are on the same page.

I remember shell/extend against NP. That was fun. Once I got 4 da's, and 4-5 solvency in one speech, plus T(against Campbell/Campbell). That was fun, of course McB got up and gave a killer 1AR that covered all of it. That was impressive.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:00 pm 
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panthersfan wrote:
Still, shell every round.

I just watched Clark/Grizzard do this in Octas, Quarters, and Semis (yes, they were neg every time). It actually works very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:37 pm 
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thehomeschooler wrote:
The reason it doesn't work as well IMO is because no matter how much you shell in the 1N, it's really easy for the 2A to address it. That's just how JVA and the args against it work. Then, when the 2NC and 1NR try to extend.......they aren't really extending anything. Most of the arguments have already been addressed, and the few that will remain debateable throughout the round are really easy for the 1AR to group and.....destroy. I thought I would be loaded in both my 1ARs. They were actually easier than when the other team split the neg. If you don't want to take it from me, that's fine :)


As someone who hasn't hit the case, would you suggest spreading as much as possible? That seems to be the implication, but I might be misinterpreting.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:46 pm 
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I recommend spreading JVA. If you can't beat it on quality of arguments (on which JVA is unbeatable), you might as well beat it on quantity and hope that aff drops or misunderstands something.

It worked for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
I recommend spreading JVA. If you can't beat it on quality of arguments (on which JVA is unbeatable), you might as well beat it on quantity and hope that aff drops or misunderstands something.

It worked for me.

Shelling works on JVA. We hit a good team running and shelled Significance Solvency and the DA's all the way through...we just out-responded to their responses...

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
I recommend spreading JVA. If you can't beat it on quality of arguments (on which JVA is unbeatable), you might as well beat it on quantity and hope that aff drops or misunderstands something.

It worked for me.

That will work. However, I'm also finding that shelling will work, because JVA is beatable on quality of arguments as well (at least in RIX where T-presses on "significantly" fly). You just have to make the right ones really well.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Shell and spread. i.e. condense each DA to about 1:30 (write each shell word for word at home) and run 5 DA shells in the 1NC, speaking as fast as you possibly can. The 2NC does likewise, but with significance shells, solvency shells, and on-case responses. Extend maybe 3 DAs in the 1NR, still speaking as fast as humanly possible.

Yes, speed is risky. No, it's not as risky as going against JVA with a small quantity of arguments. No, I'm not willing to run T-significance. =P

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:36 am 
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Halogen wrote:
run 5 DA shells in the 1NC


Do you have 5 DA's against JVA? I certainly don't :P

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:24 am 
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Digital piracy, loss of human rights leverage, acceleration of economic shocks, US-Russia-China strategic triangle, and another DA that could be anything including Russian business corruption, market flooding, etc. (basically trade with Russia is just bad in general for the US).

In response to the question that's probably in your mind: yeah. That's why I have five of these. I am unwilling to commit myself to an argument with very low potential.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:45 am 
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Halogen wrote:
US-Russia-China strategic triangle


Dude, I wrote that India year & never got to use it. Except then it was Russia-China-India. That's really funny.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
Digital piracy, loss of human rights leverage, acceleration of economic shocks, US-Russia-China strategic triangle, and another DA that could be anything including Russian business corruption, market flooding, etc. (basically trade with Russia is just bad in general for the US).

All but the last one are spiked in the 1AC... Jussayin.

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 Post subject: Re: Shell and Extend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:14 pm 
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thehomeschooler wrote:
Halogen wrote:
Digital piracy, loss of human rights leverage, acceleration of economic shocks, US-Russia-China strategic triangle, and another DA that could be anything including Russian business corruption, market flooding, etc. (basically trade with Russia is just bad in general for the US).

All but the last one are spiked in the 1AC... Jussayin.


Do you mean your Loken 08 and Kliger 10 cards?

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