homeschool debate | Forums Wiki

HomeSchoolDebate

Speech and Debate Resources and Community
Forums      Wiki
It is currently Tue May 23, 2017 7:52 am
Not a member? Guests can only see part of the forums. To see the whole thing (and add your voice!), just register a free account by following these steps.

All times are UTC+01:00




Forum locked  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:04 am 
Offline
Doesn't have a title.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:47 pm
Posts: 2954
Home Schooled: Yes
1AR: "Neg asked how we got the numbers for X, Y, and Z. My partner and I researched that information on the internet and compiled a table of figures for A-Z. Our figures come from government websites and are displayed on that table."

2NR: "The numbers for X, Y, and Z are misleading for three reasons. [reasons] Furthermore, the numbers they claim are good are actually bad because of [reasons]. Finally, X, Y, and Z are insufficient proof for the general trend claimed by the negative team."

2AR: "I encourage you to look at our table after the round and view the statistics for A-Z and see that X, Y, and Z are just an example of the benefits of all of such figures in existence."

First-time community judge: "Yes, may I see your table of figures?" *reads table and is influenced by information never presented in the debate*

How should neg proceed? Is there a right way to prevent that?

_________________
Jordan Bakke


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:17 pm
Posts: 1547
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Researching...
Halogen wrote:
1AR: "Neg asked how we got the numbers for X, Y, and Z. My partner and I researched that information on the internet and compiled a table of figures for A-Z. Our figures come from government websites and are displayed on that table."

2NR: "The numbers for X, Y, and Z are misleading for three reasons. [reasons] Furthermore, the numbers they claim are good are actually bad because of [reasons]. Finally, X, Y, and Z are insufficient proof for the general trend claimed by the negative team."

2AR: "I encourage you to look at our table after the round and view the statistics for A-Z and see that X, Y, and Z are just an example of the benefits of all of such figures in existence."

First-time community judge: "Yes, may I see your table of figures?" *reads table and is influenced by information never presented in the debate*

How should neg proceed? Is there a right way to prevent that?


I know last year teams were not allowed to offer the judge evidence. We could only give evidence if the judge asked for it. If there was an issue with evidence, you went to a tournament official who would....do something. We didn't have any issues like that to find out, fortunately.

That would probably take care of the problem...I think in judge's orientation they might mention that you have the privilege to look at evidence after the round, but 1) This is two different leagues now, and I don't know how you guys roll on this, and 2) A first-time community judge may not feel comfortable asking for evidence, or might end up asking for too much.

I haven't had much experience with this, however.

Josh

_________________
Cartman wrote:
Josh R.

Dawn wrote:
Josh R

Yes?
+X wrote:
Hm. Eminem/MNM would mean Delta F_C... oF course

Join the epidemic
Variola Eradication, Geneva, May 2011


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 2440
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Omaha, NE
Delta_FC wrote:
I think in judge's orientation they might mention that you have the privilege to look at evidence after the round

The NCFCA orientation says judges can ask for evidence after the round. Been through it twice.

_________________
-Bryan
Assistant Mock Trial Coach, University of Nebraska at Omaha


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:06 pm
Posts: 1058
Home Schooled: No
Location: Texas
Halogen wrote:
1AR: "Neg asked how we got the numbers for X, Y, and Z. My partner and I researched that information on the internet and compiled a table of figures for A-Z. Our figures come from government websites and are displayed on that table."

2NR: "The numbers for X, Y, and Z are misleading for three reasons. [reasons] Furthermore, the numbers they claim are good are actually bad because of [reasons]. Finally, X, Y, and Z are insufficient proof for the general trend claimed by the negative team."

2AR: "I encourage you to look at our table after the round and view the statistics for A-Z and see that X, Y, and Z are just an example of the benefits of all of such figures in existence."

First-time community judge: "Yes, may I see your table of figures?" *reads table and is influenced by information never presented in the debate*

How should neg proceed? Is there a right way to prevent that?


It appears you are misrepresenting what happened unless your claim is the table they gave the judge is not the table they were attesting to in the round.

Everything that happened seems 100% appropriate.

AFF : Makes an assertion
NEG: Questions how the assertion was arrived at
AFF: States it was compiled various government websites and are displayed on this table
NEG Claims the numbers are misleading and not sufficient proof
AFF: Claims numbers are a valid explanation of the aff benefit and judge is free to examine them after the round.
JUDGE: Let me see the table

This to me seems absolutely what you would expect from a debate round.

Your only ground for protest would be if the table said something different than what the aff attested to which could be cause for removal from the tournament or unless you believe the table was fabricated in some kind of way.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 806
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Running the opposite way
I think the scenario in the OP is fine. The problem comes when debaters say, "Judge, they asked us to bring up an example of when X occurred, I have evidence on that, but I don't have time to read it. Feel free to look at it after the round." That's clearly abusive.

_________________
"Don't waste your life making yourself look good. Spend your life making God look good."
--John Piper


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:48 pm 
Offline
melancholy milkshakes. no straws.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:31 pm
Posts: 3977
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Hinnom, TX
Judge can ask for evidence. Teams cannot offer evidence.

_________________
Joe Hughey
joehughey24@gmail.com

Two roads diverged in a wood and I -
I took the one less traveled
And that has made all the difference


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:29 pm
Posts: 152
Home Schooled: Yes
I'd say the judge should be able to read the table on X, Y, and Z, plus anything else they specifically mentioned in a speech. Reading information on A-W that was never presented in a speech is allowing aff to present more information than they normally would have time for, and shouldn't happen. The best response is usually to go to the tournament director/other staff early enough to give them time to discuss it with the judge before he finishes his ballot. I'm not sure how the situation would be handled at a Stoa tournament, but NCFCA would probably warn the aff not to do that again, and possibly ask the judge to consider the fact that the teams aren't supposed to offer evidence to him when making his decision.

_________________
Come to Puget Sound Debate Camp!
debatecamp.pssda.net


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:38 pm 
Offline
THE Cookie Monster!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:43 am
Posts: 2599
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: where no one knows my name
ZaR wrote:
Reading information on A-W that was never presented in a speech is allowing aff to present more information than they normally would have time for, and shouldn't happen.
That is essentially what affirmative did. The table was showing empirical numbers of trade improvement caused by policies similar to the affirmative plan. They mentioned the table in the 2AC [I think], and read two or three statistics off of it. During my 2NC, I challenged them on significance, spending the entire eight minutes on fully read evidence and statistics. The 1AR re-mentioned the table, but did not bring up any new numbers. 80% of my 2NC went unaddressed. In my 2NR, I spent at least a minute pressing on dropped arguments, why they're bad, and how silence is consent. In the 2AR, once again, they mentioned the table and possibly read another country's statistics, but by the end of the round, 90% of the numbers were unread. The strange thing is that, if I remember right, the 2AR wasn't even five minutes long. I do not, by any means, think that the affirmative was deliberately trying to screw their way around time rules. But the information that won them the debate was clearly provided after the round, which was very frustrating.

Not to mention, they dropped all three of our DAs and 80% of my sig arguments, but...that's another matter. ;)

_________________
Brenna Bakke, Veritas CA
Adorable Speecher | gr8 debate timer | 08-09
Bakke/Ruscigno | TP <3 | 09-10
Bakke/Bakke | TP <3 | 10-11
Bakke/Van Ness | TP <3 | 11-13
Sad Brenna | LD ew | 13-14
PHC Student | wow such college deb8 | 14&beyond


You're not alone.


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:50 pm 
Offline
Evil Democrat
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:23 am
Posts: 3334
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Advancing the gay agenda
We almost got in trouble for offering evidence to a judge mid-speech at one tournament.

Just a thought.

_________________
josephsamelson.com


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:06 pm
Posts: 1058
Home Schooled: No
Location: Texas
Quote:
Not to mention, they dropped all three of our DAs and 80% of my sig arguments, but...that's another matter. ;)


so I'm assuming the ballot mentions the table and all the countries helped as the RFD?

You have to remember as a debater you always see the round from your perspective if you could here the round described by the other team you would probably think they were discussing some other round ;)

If the mentioned the table a couple different times and mentioned several of the things on there a couple times I don't see how they would be expected to redact the table before they hand it to the judge. Also you seemed very confident that the other team did not do this with any malice so I would just let it go.

Did you actually look at the table? Sometimes you can find interesting things that might actually support your viewpoint.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:12 am 
Offline
THE Cookie Monster!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:43 am
Posts: 2599
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: where no one knows my name
Coach Carter wrote:
so I'm assuming the ballot mentions the table and all the countries helped as the RFD?
No, there was no RFD. Go figure. But their entire case was founded around the table and the signifance points it upheld. There was absolutely nothing else that they could have won on.

Coach Carter wrote:
Also you seemed very confident that the other team did not do this with any malice so I would just let it go.
Oh, I have let it go. I'm not trying to get revenge or satisfaction. I never really had a problem with it in the first place--my partner did. I just want to know what to do in the future.

Coach Carter wrote:
Did you actually look at the table? Sometimes you can find interesting things that might actually support your viewpoint.
Yes, I did. Nothing supported my viewpoint. :P

_________________
Brenna Bakke, Veritas CA
Adorable Speecher | gr8 debate timer | 08-09
Bakke/Ruscigno | TP <3 | 09-10
Bakke/Bakke | TP <3 | 10-11
Bakke/Van Ness | TP <3 | 11-13
Sad Brenna | LD ew | 13-14
PHC Student | wow such college deb8 | 14&beyond


You're not alone.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:16 am 
Offline
JV the Epic

Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:57 pm
Posts: 1219
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Somewhere between Irvine and Huntington Beach CA
What you guys need to do is take the figures to YOUR table and point out any flaws to the judge.

This should prevent this type of problem.

_________________
-JV


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited