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 Post subject: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:41 pm 
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People use it all the time as their basis for impacts to topicality. I absolutely hate it. I think it is totally self centered and focuses the round on you when it should be focused on the resolution.

What do you all think?

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:52 pm 
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I don't like to talk about fairness, but it's the ultimate impact to procedural arguments like topicality. It sounds whiny, but oh well.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:14 pm 
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What Halogen said.

Why do we have a resolution? To focus the debate round to something fair for each team to argue.

Why do we have time limits? To make the speaking and arguments fair for each team.

Why do we make the Aff read the entire 1AC in the first speech (prima facie)? To make the argument burden by the Negative, more fair.

We don't do anything but make debate fair, so when you "break a rule", you're inherently making it unfair.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:36 pm 
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lucky13 wrote:
People use it all the time as their basis for impacts to topicality. I absolutely hate it. I think it is totally self centered and focuses the round on you when it should be focused on the resolution.

What do you all think?

I think you're funny.

Why _should_ it be focused on the resolution? My guess is, you think it's more fair to focus it on the resolution, when the final calculations are done.

And if the resolution is the focus (more than fairness), I'm sure you won't complain if I get to speak for 40% more time than you. After all: stop focusing on you when we should be focusing on the resolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Fairness is especially annoying/pointless/whatever you want to call it when they say, "It's unfair to us because we don't have time to research something that isn't in the bounds of the resolution" and then bring up ten pieces of evidence. Yeah, you sure didn't have time to research... Although those arguments are very fun to refute :D. Anyway, I rarely ever run fairness, and if I do, it's in disguise. I never say the words, "It's not fair", and fairness is never the impact. My impacts are much, much bigger than that :D.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Luv2learn247 wrote:
Fairness is especially annoying/pointless/whatever you want to call it when they say, "It's unfair to us because we don't have time to research something that isn't in the bounds of the resolution" and then bring up ten pieces of evidence. Yeah, you sure didn't have time to research


That's why you don't run a T press that way (although I wholly condone running fairness and evidenced arguments in the same round). T isn't an argument against a case in the strictest sense of the word, it's a standard set upon debate rounds by the resolution/NCFCA. If they don't meet the standard of Topicality, then they lose, regardless of my ability to research the case. They don't meet the standard. Why do we have the standard? Fairness.

Luv2learn247 wrote:
My impacts are much, much bigger than that


What, pray tell, are they?

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:30 pm 
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Delta_FC wrote:

Luv2learn247 wrote:
My impacts are much, much bigger than that


What, pray tell, are they?

Delta_FC

Haha well I was partly joking, but here are the basic ones I usually run:
1.) Two negative teams (that usually makes the judges smile)
2.) Because the aff. team isn't Topical, they cannot fiat the Federal Government to do their plan. Thus, no Solvency.
I go into more detail on them, but those are the basics.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:39 pm 
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I do want to discuss them, but I've moved the conversation here

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:49 am 
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I moved the two most recent posts here.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:36 pm 
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I think you should impact your arguments to something other than fairness. Like with T just say that they are not within the bounds of the res so they cannot uphold it so their is only a neg box left to check. I mean really fairness is a very important part of debate but I think there are better ways to impact stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:47 am 
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Yes, fairness usually sounds whiny. And yes, it is the basis for a lot of what we do in debate. But there are other ways to do it.

You see, debate has rules :) . Beyond speech and skirt length (only one of which applies to me). These rules determine what happens in the round. Why do we have those rules? Because of fairness. But the simple truth is that these rules are more easily understandable, closer to the issues at hand, and absolute than some whiny-sounding argument of "it's not fair!"

Although fairness is the underlying reason, it isn't necessary to present; furthermore, it isn't the primary reason and shouldn't be presented as such. If you want to challenge the "rules" of debate as I present them, I can then show that these rules should be valued because they are fair. That way, I don't sound whiny, and I am persuasive to and simple for the judge.

BTW, two of my younger brothers (11 and 6) invented a parody of the Geico commercial:
"Can Geico really save you 15% or more on car insurance? Do NCFCA debaters sound whiny when running topicality? 'Waaa!!! Judge, they're not being fair! They're not being educational! Waaa!!!'"
You can tell what we talk about around the house.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:19 am 
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I personally don't like it when fairness is the only impact to a T argument.

I agree with everyone; it just sounds whiny. "Judge, it's not fair. We can't think of anything else to argue...so I don't think it is fair that they are running this case."
If you can make it sound not whiny, good. And if you have a ton of really good impacts, and want to run it with that, okay. But I don't like it when it is run as the sole impact to a T press.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:16 am 
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Joshtinian wrote:
If you want to challenge the "rules" of debate as I present them, I can then show that these rules should be valued because they are fair.
That's what I do as well, although I do include a blip about fairness and education in the 1NC. That way, if aff does not refute my T impact (1. the debate is about the resolution*; 2. there are two negative teams), then I can pull the impact and go for T as an a priori issue. If aff does refute the impact, then I can run practically brand new impacts in the 1NR. If the 1AR challenges us for running new arguments in the rebuttals, our plan of attack is as follows:

- Aff made a new argument in the 2AC: "A non-topical plan is not unfair."
- The 1NR merely refutes this assertion. The way that I happen to refute it is by explaining why fairness does matter.

This is risky, but less risky than articulating a fairness impact and having judges reject the T press simply because they don't like it. (Yes, I have had this happen.)

* No, I don't think resolution-centered debate has any merit at all. I defend it when I run T because Brenna and I are competent enough to make a ridiculous theory look plausible and because almost no one else has the sense to make intelligent arguments against it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:55 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
I do include a blip about fairness and education in the 1NC.
Yeah, there isn't really a problem with doing that. The only disadvantage to doing so I could think of would be a possible waste of time, but if you've worked your T-presses right, this shouldn't be an issue.
Halogen wrote:
* No, I don't think resolution-centered debate has any merit at all. I defend it when I run T because Brenna and I are competent enough to make a ridiculous theory look plausible and because almost no one else has the sense to make intelligent arguments against it.
The God Delusion's title is less provocative. And more factually accurate. If that were only possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:09 pm 
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Yeah, I know. It was intentional. Without the hyperbole, my point is that our tactic is less risky than a well-developed T shell.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:42 am 
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Fun line I thought of the other day if you're arguing for fairness good -- "Lady Justice's blindfold isn't a fashion accessory"

Okay, a bit corny, but I'm tired and I find it humorous.

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 Post subject: Re: Fairness
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:15 pm 
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T is just another argument, like a DA, like an advantage. There has to be impact calculus on it. Aff can say, "weigh the slight inconvenience of two debaters for an hour and a half against the lives of several thousand, over 100 years." Neg can say, "your plan doesn't happen in the real world, but fairness is harmed in the real world."

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