homeschool debate | Forums Wiki

HomeSchoolDebate

Speech and Debate Resources and Community
Forums      Wiki
It is currently Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:34 pm
Not a member? Guests can only see part of the forums. To see the whole thing (and add your voice!), just register a free account by following these steps.

All times are UTC+01:00




Forum locked  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: This house...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:58 pm
Posts: 340
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Manhattan KS (Region V)
What does 'this house' refer to? British Parliament? US House of Reps? Does the Aff get to decide what it refers to? Can the Neg challenge their interpretation? Which interpretation will have the least judge bias?

_________________
Alius Iudex Alius Dies, Sola Deo Gloria


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:53 am 
Offline
The Great White Sharc
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:58 pm
Posts: 4769
Home Schooled: Yes
Gov gets to decide what TH is. There could obviously be theory argumentation if they're abusive about it.

_________________
Marc Davis

I currently help coach at TACT in Region X.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 2440
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Omaha, NE
Most common:
People in this room (for value/fact)
The USFG (for policy)

I've also seen:
The elves from Middle Earth (yes, I'm serious--aff lost btw because the MO was a LOTR nerd)
The US economy

Basically whatever you want, but a community judge would probably expect something reasonable.

EDIT:
Post number 1400

_________________
-Bryan
Assistant Mock Trial Coach, University of Nebraska at Omaha


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:22 pm
Posts: 1389
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Austin, TX
Unfortunately, novice parli tournament directors think "this house" is what makes a parli rez. It's not. Many parli resolutions don't include "this house" (with good reason), because sometimes it can get pretty dumb. When I write resolutions, I rarely use "this house".

When I get a "this house" resolution (since I'm usually not very squirrely...with the first speech that is ;)) I almost always automatically interpret it as the actor implied in the rez (usually USFG) or as "the advocacy of the room", meaning "if we persuade you (this house) about the resolution". Usually we recommend you prepare a short T response with a K on frivolous T to be used by the MG if it is challenged... this is memorized by now though for me.

There is one particular danger area: "This house believes that". If you define it as the advocacy of the room only, some people will say that means you defined it as what the room ALREADY believes. Be sure in your interpretation you say something like "based solely on the arguments in the debate round, this house at the end of the round is persuaded that" if you are up against someone fishy. Hopefully it won't be a big deal in Stoa/NCFCA-type high school parli, but some people will also say a THBT resolution is inherently a "fact" resolution and run trichot on you if you don't interpret it as a fact resolution, or run trichot that it should've been policy if you DO interpret it that way. Stupid stupid stupid waste, but they'll prep both because they don't know squat about the topic and are going to get you on theory no matter which way you go. Be prepared with a prepped MG response.

_________________
Upside Down Debate. The book that teaches you the deeper why of debate, from the ground up.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:27 pm
Posts: 626
Home Schooled: Yes
An example of weird would be the practice round where this house was defined as the British empire through out history and the plan was to stop the policy of impounding American sailors in an attempt to avoid the war of 1812 to save lives.

After the round, I got an opportunity to explain that you shouldn't argue against every crazy interpretation... sometimes the right response to crazy is go crazy right back. Any serious science fiction fan can easily fill an entire round with reasons why time travel doesn't work how you think it will, won't solve what you think it solves, and leads to paradoxes.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:38 pm
Posts: 784
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Insied ur interwebz
This House = British Parliament. Hence, it's called "Parli" debate and not "Congress" debate.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:23 am
Posts: 1300
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on till morning
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
This House = British Parliament. Hence, it's called "Parli" debate and not "Congress" debate.


No.

It's called "Parli" because it's conducted in the style of debates in the British Parliament. Your statement is equivalent to saying that Abe Lincoln is an implied actor in all LD debates.

_________________
Middlebury Class of '15


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:09 am
Posts: 186
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Gaborone, Botswana
FRANK wrote:
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
This House = British Parliament. Hence, it's called "Parli" debate and not "Congress" debate.


No.

It's called "Parli" because it's conducted in the style of debates in the British Parliament. Your statement is equivalent to saying that Abe Lincoln is an implied actor in all LD debates.


Lol... well put.

It would make motions like "This House would reform the American tax system" somewhat... erm... neo-colonial? Or dumb?

_________________
Luke


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:38 pm
Posts: 784
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Insied ur interwebz
LD is known by both "values" and "LD". 'Values' debate is meant to simulate the debating of values present in a round between Lincoln and Douglas.

Parli is meant to literally simulate Parliament - hence the first speaker is referred to in-round as the Prime Minister, the second is Member Of The Government, and so and so forth. It is most definitely meant to literally be a simulation of Parliament.

As to Luke's observation, yes, "This House would reform the American tax system" is a dumb resolution. The proper way to phrase it would be "This House would reform the tax system."


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:42 am
Posts: 281
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Oklahoma University
Actually, as I understand it, the term 'Lincoln Douglas' has nothing to do with values. It simply means 'one vs. one,' as opposed to team policy's 'team.' It refers to the number of debaters, whereas 'value' refers to the type of debate. It's entirely possible to have Lincoln Douglas Policy debate, and likewise a Team Value debate. Team Lincoln Douglas debate, however, is a confusing oxymoron.

-Conor


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:07 pm 
Offline
The Great White Sharc
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:58 pm
Posts: 4769
Home Schooled: Yes
Quote:
Parli is meant to literally simulate Parliament - hence the first speaker is referred to in-round as the Prime Minister, the second is Member Of The Government, and so and so forth. It is most definitely meant to literally be a simulation of Parliament.


So does the government then have to pretend to be Torries, and the opposition Labour? It's similar in some of its structure, but it does not follow that TH has to be the british government. Where are you getting this idea?

_________________
Marc Davis

I currently help coach at TACT in Region X.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:30 pm 
Offline
Doesn't have a title.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:47 pm
Posts: 2954
Home Schooled: Yes
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
LD is known by both "values" and "LD". 'Values' debate is meant to simulate the debating of values present in a round between Lincoln and Douglas.
Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas debated slavery, not values. In fact, their debates were 3 hours long.

_________________
Jordan Bakke


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 1394
Home Schooled: Yes
Halogen wrote:
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
LD is known by both "values" and "LD". 'Values' debate is meant to simulate the debating of values present in a round between Lincoln and Douglas.
Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas debated slavery, not values. In fact, their debates were 3 hours long.


Intense irony here: if Lincoln and Douglas correspond to speaking positions, we have Abe Lincoln supporting popular sovereignty and Stephen Douglas supporting individual rights.

:P

Carry on.

_________________
Andrew Min
ahmin@princeton.edu
Arete Speech & Debate, NCFCA, Class of 2011


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:38 pm
Posts: 784
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Insied ur interwebz
013 wrote:
So does the government then have to pretend to be Torries, and the opposition Labour? It's similar in some of its structure, but it does not follow that TH has to be the british government. Where are you getting this idea?


No, the Government has to pretend to be the Government, and the Opposition has to pretend to be the Opposition. If there was a "Congress" style of debate, you wouldn't have to pretend to be a Republican if you were Aff and Democrat if you were Neg.

Halogen wrote:
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
LD is known by both "values" and "LD". 'Values' debate is meant to simulate the debating of values present in a round between Lincoln and Douglas.
Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas debated slavery, not values. In fact, their debates were 3 hours long.


Alright, I need to rephrase my last statement... perhaps it came out wrong. Alright. *ahem*

'Values' debate is meant to simulate the debating of values in a similar fashion as the debates between Lincoln and Douglas.

Better?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:24 am 
Offline
Order of Merlin, First Class
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:33 am
Posts: 1443
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Sunny San Diego(yes I'm rubbing it in)
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
013 wrote:
So does the government then have to pretend to be Torries, and the opposition Labour? It's similar in some of its structure, but it does not follow that TH has to be the british government. Where are you getting this idea?


No, the Government has to pretend to be the Government, and the Opposition has to pretend to be the Opposition. If there was a "Congress" style of debate, you wouldn't have to pretend to be a Republican if you were Aff and Democrat if you were Neg.


No, you would pretend to be Democrat when you are aff, and Republican when you are neg, because the Democrats are in power, and the republicans are trying to block everything. ;)

_________________
There are those of us with a sense of Humor, and we suffer for it. -Some Loser


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:38 pm
Posts: 784
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Insied ur interwebz
db8rox wrote:
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
013 wrote:
So does the government then have to pretend to be Torries, and the opposition Labour? It's similar in some of its structure, but it does not follow that TH has to be the british government. Where are you getting this idea?
No, the Government has to pretend to be the Government, and the Opposition has to pretend to be the Opposition. If there was a "Congress" style of debate, you wouldn't have to pretend to be a Republican if you were Aff and Democrat if you were Neg.

No, you would pretend to be Democrat when you are aff, and Republican when you are neg, because the Democrats are in power, and the republicans are trying to block everything. ;)


Um, the Republicans have a +63 majority in the House, and a -2 balance in the Senate. The Democrats have a narrow majority in the Senate and a superminority in the house.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:17 am 
Offline
The Great White Sharc
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:58 pm
Posts: 4769
Home Schooled: Yes
tehepicpwnzor wrote:
013 wrote:
So does the government then have to pretend to be Torries, and the opposition Labour? It's similar in some of its structure, but it does not follow that TH has to be the british government. Where are you getting this idea?


No, the Government has to pretend to be the Government, and the Opposition has to pretend to be the Opposition. If there was a "Congress" style of debate, you wouldn't have to pretend to be a Republican if you were Aff and Democrat if you were Neg.

If there was an American style of what you're construing parli to be it would be "majority party" and "minority party", because in England the official "opposition" is the minority party in the House of Commons (I think), which is currently Labour.

Humorous examples aside, this is not how actual parlimentary debate works (at least none that I've participated in or heard of), and I don't know where you got this idea.

_________________
Marc Davis

I currently help coach at TACT in Region X.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:38 pm
Posts: 784
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Insied ur interwebz
013 wrote:
Humorous examples aside, this is not how actual parlimentary debate works (at least none that I've participated in or heard of), and I don't know where you got this idea.


In my experience, most Parli rounds I've been in have worked like this. All the topics I've ever gotten have been broad, non specific resolutions.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:22 pm
Posts: 1389
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Austin, TX
Here are some example past parli resolutions:
Quote:
Round 1: On the issue of energy, Barack Obama is preferable to John McCain.
Round 2: The USFG should tighten safety guidelines on imports.
Round 3: In this instance, the use of military force is justified.
Round 4: TH should support a bridge to nowhere.
Round 5: The scope of anti-discrimination laws in the US should be expanded.
Round 6: The President of the US should have line-item veto power.
Octafinals: It is time to reinstate the Monroe Doctrine.
Quarterfinals: The US should reinstate Cold War politics.
Semifinals: The USFG should alter its foreign policy toward Pakistan.
Finals: The USFG should do more to protect its citizens from natural disasters.

http://www.parlidebate.org/debate/resol ... solutions/

LD = a format. 1 vs. 1. There are LD value, LD policy (NFA), LD parli (IPDA) events in different leagues. There are team events in different leagues. There are 8 people debating in a single round in a format called British Parli. Don't read too much into the names. Debate is debate: prove the given resolution.

_________________
Upside Down Debate. The book that teaches you the deeper why of debate, from the ground up.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: This house...?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 2440
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Omaha, NE
^^to further the examples, here are the one's I've had. Some are sweet, some are laaaaaame. (you can kinda tell what outround I lost and thus stopped paying attention)

Creighton wrote:
Resolved: the USFG should legalize and tax the use of recreational marijuanna
Resolved: the USFG should abandon standardized testing
Resolved: the US should withdraw from Afghanistan
Resolved: the USFG should end diplomatic relations with Taiwan
Resolved: the National Football League should substantially increase the protection of its players from serious injury (that was fun, btw)
Resolved: Google should uphold the security of its users above its economic interests
Quarters: Childhood obesity is an epidemic in need of a cure (we were neg--first K my partner and I ever ran...)


Bowling Green wrote:
Resolved: the USFG should overhaul the overhaul
Resolved: the people of the United States value community over individuality
TH believes the EU is being sunk from within
Resolved: the USFG should take a leap of faith
Quarters: TH can see clearly now, the rain is gone
Semis: TH believes the rent is too @#^! high
Finals: TH believes Ben Bernanke, the head of the US Federal Reserve, has it wrong

Not one TH res was from the point of view of the British Parliament. Very obviously, the USFG and NFL rounds were not either. I obviously know about aff's right to define (which is how we won the semis at BGSU), but there's no reason to confine the aff to Britain.

_________________
-Bryan
Assistant Mock Trial Coach, University of Nebraska at Omaha


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited