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 Post subject: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Is NCFCA going to start doing parli as well?

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:11 pm 
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Not to anyone's knowledge. If they are, they haven't told us. So they're either un-creative or secretive. I iz Stoan. :ugeek:

Yeah... I'm joking. But so far, we haven't heard anything about parli.


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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:18 pm 
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R4 has kicked around the idea of doing it as a wild card event.


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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:49 am 
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It was announced at the January Warm-up (The first NCFCA qualifier in Texas this year), that region 4 would be piloting parli next year.

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:18 pm 
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If Ethos directs PHC debate camp again this year (deal-making currently in the works), we will offer parli + policy to everyone. So you'll learn how to do both and actually compete in both in the tournament. Whether novices can do that too is still to be decided, but probably.

You could also go to our Irving Texas camp, where we will have a parli track.

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:01 am 
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I think it might be a good idea to do the same thing that we are doing for Duo Impromptu* for parliamentary debate on a national scale. I don't think having Parliamentary Debate as part of the league could be anything but productive. :) :D

I'm glad to be the first to add my John Hancock to this Petition.

Matthew Baker (Region 10)

*See the links in my signature

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:47 am 
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Parli is fun... but I don't think it's totally consistent with NCFCA's goals. At least, it's not consistently consistent enough to be an event (in other words, there are exceptions, but generally it's not consistent). NCFCA uses debate as a means to better communication skills. Debate isn't an end in and of itself. Parli makes you a better debater, but it doesn't make you a better communicator. You don't get any depth on the topics you debate. Since you don't have a well thought out case or well thought out negative arguments, you don't learn how to make solid, well thought out arguments like you do in TP.

Any communication skills you gain from parli are better learned in pre-existing NCFCA events. The only really unique benefit I can think of is learning how to make arguments on your feet, but impromptu teaches you those skills. I'd contend that impromptu is actually better because it's more broadly and easily applicable in the real world. The only other unique things you learn from parli are how to better use generics, how to formulate a cohesive debate theory, and other debate related skills.

I know I'm probably coming down a little hard on parli... but I just am not entirely convinced that it's the best use of my (or the league's) time. Why would I want to take away from the time I spend working on TP and speeches to work on parli? And how would the league justify the added headache of having to do tab, adjust schedules, etc. for a third debate event?

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:27 am 
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If I had a choice of doing Parli and TP, I would take Parli. I'm not in debate for lulz, I'm in it to get real life experience, as it's pretty much a given I'll end up using debate skills throughout my adult life. I think Parli would probably actually have more in it for me than policy.


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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:00 am 
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OppositeWay wrote:
Parli makes you a better debater, but it doesn't make you a better communicator. You don't get any depth on the topics you debate. Since you don't have a well thought out case or well thought out negative arguments, you don't learn how to make solid, well thought out arguments like you do in TP.


Going 'in-depth' doesn't necessarily provide more real-world benefits. I'm not going to be an environmental engineer, so you could say that a lot of the minutia that I learned last year is useless, in a direct sense.

Also, depth won't always achieve solid argumentation, nor do solid arguments always require depth.

Quote:
Any communication skills you gain from parli are better learned in pre-existing NCFCA events. The only really unique benefit I can think of is learning how to make arguments on your feet, but impromptu teaches you those skills.


Impromptu doesn't require you to make an argument, or defend it in front of a judge. Parli is infinitely more useful for learning to generate actual arguments on the fly, not just a hook, three points, and a conclusion.

Quote:
I'd contend that impromptu is actually better because it's more broadly and easily applicable in the real world.

Warrant?

Quote:
The only other unique things you learn from parli are how to better use generics, how to formulate a cohesive debate theory, and other debate related skills.


Using better generics teaches flexibility and preparedness. Debate theory encourages creativity and thinking out of the box. Other debate related skills are also immediately applicable to real life.

Additionally, developing the ability think critically on the spot, maintaining an extemper's awareness of current events, and coupling that with a TPers opinionated stance are highly educational endeavors.

Finally, in the context of debate, breaking the mold and trying something new is often very beneficial. When I switched from TP to LD, the transition forced me to think in entirely new ways, and was enormously educational.


Quote:
I know I'm probably coming down a little hard on parli... but I just am not entirely convinced that it's the best use of my (or the league's) time. Why would I want to take away from the time I spend working on TP and speeches to work on parli? And how would the league justify the added headache of having to do tab, adjust schedules, etc. for a third debate event?


If you'd rather not do parli, that's entirely fine. However, Stoa provides historical precedent of the fact that parli and homeschool high school debate mix perfectly well. At the very least, that should warrant NCFCA's attention and deep consideration.

-Conor


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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:53 am 
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Quote:
I don't think it's totally consistent with NCFCA's goals.

I could say that about a lot of things in the NCFCA..

But I digress

Parli is absolutely applicable to real world communication. The arguments are also far deeper than in Policy.


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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Sirsarcasm wrote:
Quote:
I don't think it's totally consistent with NCFCA's goals.

I could say that about a lot of things in the NCFCA..

But I digress

Parli is absolutely applicable to real world communication. The arguments are also far deeper than in Policy.

Agreed. Its amazing how much better one can communicate when there is no dependence on evidence. All of a sudden analytics become all that matter. Its quite the growing experience. Of course, parli at NCFCA speed is kind of dicey, in my opinion, because you don't have enough time to go in-depth on very many things. That creates a massive aff bias (not like that doesn't exist in TP), especially with metaphorical rounds.

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Are you talking NPDA or British? (locutus and sarcasm)

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:24 am 
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NPDA. I've never done British. Seen part of one on youtube and wasn't a fan.

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:49 am 
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LocutusofBorg wrote:
NPDA. I've never done British. Seen part of one on youtube and wasn't a fan.

Me neither, but as far as real-world communication goes, that probably has a thing or two over parli.

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:14 pm 
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conormcb wrote:
OppositeWay wrote:
Parli makes you a better debater, but it doesn't make you a better communicator. You don't get any depth on the topics you debate. Since you don't have a well thought out case or well thought out negative arguments, you don't learn how to make solid, well thought out arguments like you do in TP.


Going 'in-depth' doesn't necessarily provide more real-world benefits. I'm not going to be an environmental engineer, so you could say that a lot of the minutia that I learned last year is useless, in a direct sense.

Also, depth won't always achieve solid argumentation, nor do solid arguments always require depth.

Quote:
Any communication skills you gain from parli are better learned in pre-existing NCFCA events. The only really unique benefit I can think of is learning how to make arguments on your feet, but impromptu teaches you those skills.


Impromptu doesn't require you to make an argument, or defend it in front of a judge. Parli is infinitely more useful for learning to generate actual arguments on the fly, not just a hook, three points, and a conclusion.

Quote:
I'd contend that impromptu is actually better because it's more broadly and easily applicable in the real world.

Warrant?

Quote:
The only other unique things you learn from parli are how to better use generics, how to formulate a cohesive debate theory, and other debate related skills.


Using better generics teaches flexibility and preparedness. Debate theory encourages creativity and thinking out of the box. Other debate related skills are also immediately applicable to real life.

Additionally, developing the ability think critically on the spot, maintaining an extemper's awareness of current events, and coupling that with a TPers opinionated stance are highly educational endeavors.

Finally, in the context of debate, breaking the mold and trying something new is often very beneficial. When I switched from TP to LD, the transition forced me to think in entirely new ways, and was enormously educational.


Quote:
I know I'm probably coming down a little hard on parli... but I just am not entirely convinced that it's the best use of my (or the league's) time. Why would I want to take away from the time I spend working on TP and speeches to work on parli? And how would the league justify the added headache of having to do tab, adjust schedules, etc. for a third debate event?


If you'd rather not do parli, that's entirely fine. However, Stoa provides historical precedent of the fact that parli and homeschool high school debate mix perfectly well. At the very least, that should warrant NCFCA's attention and deep consideration.

-Conor


^Wow, sooo true. anyways if ya'll support the idea why don't you add your name to the petition. (My plan at this point is to take all of the names from HSD and the Region 10 Forum and put them on one email asking to have parli in the NCFCA, With a nice little blurb about Parli that I will post up here to be criticized until we come to some sort of consensus of what it should say)

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:49 pm 
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conormcb wrote:
OppositeWay wrote:
Parli makes you a better debater, but it doesn't make you a better communicator. You don't get any depth on the topics you debate. Since you don't have a well thought out case or well thought out negative arguments, you don't learn how to make solid, well thought out arguments like you do in TP.


Going 'in-depth' doesn't necessarily provide more real-world benefits. I'm not going to be an environmental engineer, so you could say that a lot of the minutia that I learned last year is useless, in a direct sense.

But it teaches you how to go in depth. I've formulated an in depth stance on how I think we should do policy towards Russia. I might not go into a Russia related field... but knowing how to go about making that position has helped me formulate my positions on social issues, religion, politics, etc.

Quote:
Also, depth won't always achieve solid argumentation, nor do solid arguments always require depth.

But depth more often than not (at least more than just breadth) leads to solid argumentation and many solid arguments do require depth to be effective.

Quote:
Quote:
Any communication skills you gain from parli are better learned in pre-existing NCFCA events. The only really unique benefit I can think of is learning how to make arguments on your feet, but impromptu teaches you those skills.


Impromptu doesn't require you to make an argument, or defend it in front of a judge. Parli is infinitely more useful for learning to generate actual arguments on the fly, not just a hook, three points, and a conclusion.

Impromptu sometimes involves argumentation. Whenever I disagree with a quote, I have to construct real world arguments on the fly to show why I don't support the quote. Extemp also involves lots of construction of arguments on the fly. You have to formulate a position and defend it without using any debate terminology.

Quote:
Quote:
I'd contend that impromptu is actually better because it's more broadly and easily applicable in the real world.

Warrant?

For instance, someone in my speech club was at a friend's graduation party. And her friend's mom came up to her and asked her if she could say a few words. She was able to use the skills she learned in impromptu to quickly think of something to say. So impromptu can be used directly if you're called on to give an impromptu. Also, most (if not all) of us have to write papers, do essays, be interviewed for jobs, etc. Each one of these circumstances requires being able to think on your feet. Impromptu teaches those skills. Parli can teach you those skills... but I don't see how it's superior or as good.

Quote:
Quote:
The only other unique things you learn from parli are how to better use generics, how to formulate a cohesive debate theory, and other debate related skills.


Using better generics teaches flexibility and preparedness. Debate theory encourages creativity and thinking out of the box. Other debate related skills are also immediately applicable to real life.

Yes, but why can't you learn that by doing TP or LD?

Quote:
Additionally, developing the ability think critically on the spot, maintaining an extemper's awareness of current events, and coupling that with a TPers opinionated stance are highly educational endeavors.

Again, I'd say that you can achieve those goals by doing TP and extemp.

Quote:
Finally, in the context of debate, breaking the mold and trying something new is often very beneficial. When I switched from TP to LD, the transition forced me to think in entirely new ways, and was enormously educational.

Hehe... yeah, that's why I'm switching to LD next year. :) That is a good reason... but I'm still not sure that justifies the massive amount of time and effort that would have to go into making NCFCA parli a reality.

Quote:
Quote:
I know I'm probably coming down a little hard on parli... but I just am not entirely convinced that it's the best use of my (or the league's) time. Why would I want to take away from the time I spend working on TP and speeches to work on parli? And how would the league justify the added headache of having to do tab, adjust schedules, etc. for a third debate event?


If you'd rather not do parli, that's entirely fine. However, Stoa provides historical precedent of the fact that parli and homeschool high school debate mix perfectly well. At the very least, that should warrant NCFCA's attention and deep consideration.

I haven't had any experience with Stoa parli, so I'm not going to disagree with you. It's something that NCFCA should definitely consider. I'm also open to having a different opinion. In some ways I'm playing a devil's advocate. I'm not entirely opposed to parli. I just don't want to rush into something that I'm not convinced is a good idea.

So if I was to sum up my opinion... it would be this: Parli might not be a bad idea, but I know that adding a debate event requires tons of work, effort, and time. I'm not entirely sure that parli provides enough unique advantages to justify adding it as an event.

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Parli would be an excellent replacement/augmentation to Extemp. It is slightly longer but if you organize the patterns right, you can fit it in there.

Or do a modified version for high school that fits the parameters and limitations.

Something to try anyways..


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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:39 pm 
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OppositeWay wrote:
So if I was to sum up my opinion... it would be this: Parli might not be a bad idea, but I know that adding a debate event requires tons of work, effort, and time. I'm not entirely sure that parli provides enough unique advantages to justify adding it as an event.


OK, that's entirely reasonable. My opinion is a little more optimistic, but I think you and I actually agree for the most part. :)

-Conor


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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:00 am 
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Sirsarcasm wrote:
Parli would be an excellent replacement/augmentation to Extemp. It is slightly longer but if you organize the patterns right, you can fit it in there.

Or do a modified version for high school that fits the parameters and limitations.

Something to try anyways..

so much this

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 Post subject: Re: NCFCA-Parli
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:57 pm 
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I don't know how the NCFCA will implement parli, but for the Stoa pilot it was limited to advanced debaters (with a very flexible definition of what advanced was). At the first parli tournament, over half of the parli debaters had been to finals in some form of debate at least one time previous. The competition was fierce and there were no freebie rounds. That alone was responsible for a considerable amount of improvement to the level of debate in Texas.

In addition, Parli teaches time management with a team. Something that is a unique experience offered by no other event... and no, five minutes of policy prep-time doesn't even begin to compare to what you have to cover during parli prep.

There are more unique advantages, but the biggest advantage is the one that is the hardest to quantify: The fun factor.


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