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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:46 pm 
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I wanted to start this forum to give those who have experience with Parli to be able to discuss the benefits of parliamentary debate as opposed to other forms of debate in real life as well as a forum for those with experience to share the problems they have had with Parli and how to deal with them.

(For the record, I am personally opposed to Parli debate in high school...but that is my opinion and I want others to share their thoughts first).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Is parli really as rhetorical and academically diluted as the Stoa Texas website claims?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:12 am 
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Real parli isn't.

They're just being honest. If policy is as rhetorically based as it is, how can we expect any more from parli, especially if they 1) don't allow coaching 2) allow a scant fifteen minutes for prep instead of twenty or twenty five 3) don't allow prepared materials and 4) don't allow internet access?

ps. I am suggesting that this is fake.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:29 am 
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ldrox wrote:
2) allow a scant fifteen minutes for prep instead of twenty or twenty five 3) don't allow prepared materials and 4) don't allow internet access?

I'm pretty sure fifteen minutes of prep and no prepared materials (in round) are usual parli rules... And the Stoa TX site says that computers/internet are allowed, unless the tournament decides to prohibit them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:31 am 
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ldrox wrote:
Real parli isn't.

They're just being honest. If policy is as rhetorically based as it is, how can we expect any more from parli, especially if they 1) don't allow coaching 2) allow a scant fifteen minutes for prep instead of twenty or twenty five 3) don't allow prepared materials and 4) don't allow internet access?

ps. I am suggesting that this is fake.
Yeah, I definitely believe your suggestion (and really hope you're right). I have too much respect for Stoa to believe that they are implementing those rules.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:44 am 
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FastFlamingo wrote:
I'm pretty sure fifteen minutes of prep and no prepared materials (in round) are usual parli rules... And the Stoa TX site says that computers/internet are allowed, unless the tournament decides to prohibit them.

15 isn't standard....it effectively makes it 10 minutes for prep if your room is far away. [every tournament I've been to: 20; NPDA: 15 + walking time; NPTE: 20 + walking time]

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:46 am 
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btw, speech times:

Prime Minister Constructive: 7 minutes
Leader of the Opposition Constructive: 7 minutes
Member of the Government Constructive: 7 minutes
Member of the Opposition Constructive: 7 minutes
Leader of Opposition Rebuttal: 5 minutes
Prime Minister Rebuttal: 5 minutes

why? 7-8-8-8-4-5 is standard.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:56 am 
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Did you hear that crack? It was my heart.

::sigh:: And here I was, hoping. Not only did I forget that I'll never find a partner (ever) but now I learn that it's not even real parli they plan on doing...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:09 am 
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ldrox wrote:
FastFlamingo wrote:
I'm pretty sure fifteen minutes of prep and no prepared materials (in round) are usual parli rules... And the Stoa TX site says that computers/internet are allowed, unless the tournament decides to prohibit them.

15 isn't standard....it effectively makes it 10 minutes for prep if your room is far away. [every tournament I've been to: 20; NPDA: 15 + walking time; NPTE: 20 + walking time]

The time is 15 PLUS logistics. If your room is five minutes away then the tournament should provide 20 minutes total prep.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:11 am 
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Halogen wrote:
ldrox wrote:
Real parli isn't.

They're just being honest. If policy is as rhetorically based as it is, how can we expect any more from parli, especially if they 1) don't allow coaching 2) allow a scant fifteen minutes for prep instead of twenty or twenty five 3) don't allow prepared materials and 4) don't allow internet access?

ps. I am suggesting that this is fake.
Yeah, I definitely believe your suggestion (and really hope you're right). I have too much respect for Stoa to believe that they are implementing those rules.

1. I think the final rules will allow coaching, we are working to put them up today (don't panic!). The only time in question was coaching during prep time, not after rounds or outside tournaments.
2. You can't bring prepared materials into the round, you can have them for preptime (just like extemp)
3. Internet access is not guaranteed at a tournament, this is a facilities issue.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:50 am 
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I posted a copy of the final Stoa parli rules to this forum. My wife is working to update the Stoa TX website, but in the interest of accuracy she is taking the PDF file and reconverting the entire thing from scratch onto the website because she wants to ensure it is exactly correct. The site should be up to date by the end of the weekend, but in the meantime the rules are available in this forum.

Craig


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:11 am 
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Before I "respond" to any other comments, I need to say something: I could go into detail and illustrate every benefit that I have personally reaped from collegiate Parli., but doing so would be hard. I do admit--yes, Parli. is extremely difficult. It is difficult to comprehend from the perspective of one who has never seen it done well. It can also be just as difficult for experienced debaters. But this style of debate is incredibly helpful for developing a speaker's individual critical thinking skills. It refines the debater based on his or her individual public-speaking/debating needs. Parli. truly allows the speaker to hone in on his or her weaknesses and strengths. Parli. allows for this refining in not only the limited prep time, but in the diversity of resolutions, the freedom to interpret resolutions and philosophies, the freedom to argue so many different forms of debate theory at one tournament, etcetera, etcetera.
ldrox wrote:
They're just being honest. If policy is as rhetorically based as it is, how can we expect any more from parli, especially if they 1) don't allow coaching 2) allow a scant fifteen minutes for prep instead of twenty or twenty five 3) don't allow prepared materials and 4) don't allow internet access?

1) You know why we cannot allow coaching, right? It would be incredibly unfair to allow for a club with more coaches, members, and alumni to help out with their debaters, while our teeny, little Rhode Island club is stuck with one inexperienced parent to assist. This rule simply removes any potential "elitist" [as Mrs. Nasser termed it] activity.
What other way would you have it?
2) Hmm. I do admit that 15 minutes is certainly interesting. I don't necessarily agree that this is good move for Stoa. But keep in mind that these rules are only a rough draft. I'm sure when LD and TP began back in the day that some rules had to be removed, altered, or added after the first tournament.
3) To allow for prepared materials during the round would defeat the purpose of parli. And given TP's reputation for over emphasizing evidence in rounds, I like this rule very much.
4) Hm. Read the rules again, Jon.
The T Stoa Website wrote:
Competitors may prepare together using whatever materials they would like during the fifteen minutes of preparation time, including accessing electronic devices (unless otherwise banned by the Tournament Director).

Unless, of course, you are referring to in-the-round Internet access. And every experienced Parli. competitor know how ridiculous that would be.
+X wrote:
...but now I learn that it's not even real parli they plan on doing...

What do you consider to be real Parli? I hope you all understand that this form of Parli. debate will not turn out the way it is in college. ... Wait? You do understand? Well, then. I hope you all recognize that Stoa does not intend for Parli. to be the same as the collegiate version. To encourage that would be ridiculous.

I am not asking anyone to alter their perceptions of Parli. I am asking that you all stop applying those perceptions to the home-school, high-school version that no NCFCA/Stoa competitor has even tried yet!!! I mean, seriously. All of you haters are on the verge of creating a bunch of ridiculous Slippery Slopes. Give this style of debate a chance. Challenge its potential disadvantages and advantages, but do not assume it will ruin debate as we know it. "The power of life and death is in the tongue." Be practical in your commentaries, but provide hope for the event and encouragement for those who may participate in it.

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"I forget the last time I felt brave/I just recall insecurity/Cuz it came down like a tidal wave/And sorrow swept over me/I was given grace and love/I was blind but now I can see/Cuz I found a new hope from above/And courage swept over me..."~Owl City[Tidal Wave]


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:22 am 
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[quote="DramaticInterp"]What do you consider to be real Parli? I hope you all understand that this form of Parli. debate will not turn out the way it is in college. ... Wait? You do understand? Well, then. I hope you all recognize that Stoa does not intend for Parli. to be the same as the collegiate version. To encourage that would be ridiculous.[quote]
However, I did (silly as I am) expect Stoa to keep using the actual Parli time schedule.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:30 am 
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Here is a link to the PDF version of the rules: http://stoatx.org/resources/Stoa%20Parl ... 0Final.pdf


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:32 am 
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1. well that's just ridiculous. equality doesn't exist. is it fair for some clubs to have better coaches at all?
I'd try learning from the way the two largest, most established, and most respected parli tournaments in the US operate.
2. I posted those before CoachTigger posted the rules. Prep time is fine now. I'm still baffled at the speech times though.
3. lol unfortunately, here in homeschooldebateland, it's gonna become homeschool LD...only impromptu'd.
4. awesome.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:35 am 
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The coaching/no-coaching only applies to prep-time. This was a tough decision, in other leagues it is considered cheating and is against the rules. In the end, Stoa landed on less legalism and did not ban it although most clubs (including iCom) will operate with the expectation of no coaching during prep time.

The reason for promoting no coaching is that this is an advanced form of debate and we hope to teach students to quickly analyze a topic. Reliance on a coach for analysis is contrary to that goal. Now AFTER the round is a different story and you better believe that I and many other good coaches will be talking with the debaters about coulda/shoulda/woulda :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:37 am 
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ldrox wrote:
1. well that's just ridiculous. equality doesn't exist. is it fair for some clubs to have better coaches at all?
I'd try learning from the way the two largest, most established, and most respected parli tournaments in the US operate.

In other leagues, coaching during prep-time is banned. We had some very big names helping to form the Parli rules who are indeed familiar with other leagues (both high school and college) and have been competing in them for some time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:41 am 
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CoachTigger wrote:
ldrox wrote:
1. well that's just ridiculous. equality doesn't exist. is it fair for some clubs to have better coaches at all?
I'd try learning from the way the two largest, most established, and most respected parli tournaments in the US operate.

In other leagues, coaching during prep-time is banned. We had some very big names helping to form the Parli rules who are indeed familiar with other leagues (both high school and college) and have been competing in them for some time.

Besides, there are some of us that have no coaches at all, and never will. It's hard enough to figure out what I'm doing without my opponent's coach helping the other team.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:42 am 
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CoachTigger wrote:
The time is 15 PLUS logistics. If your room is five minutes away then the tournament should provide 20 minutes total prep.

Parli drills will now include the 100 yard dash.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:46 am 
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Wait, people considered banning coaching out-of-round? That just blew my mind.

If banning in-round coaching was based on fairness,

What about the team that had the money to go to Nasser & Co. debate camp?
The team that belonged to the bigger club?
The debater who came from an established "debate family?"

We should ban all those. For fairness.

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