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 Post subject: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:16 pm 
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Hint hint peoples.
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PMC gets up, and spews the usual gibberish.

LOC gets up, and shot guns out 5 DA's.

MGC tries to cover 5 Unique DA's. Good luck.

MOC shotguns five more DA's.

LOR sums up ten DA's worth of votes.

Good luck PMR.

Thoughts?

(Mod note: This post was written by my friend, Arik Schneider. For context's sake, a "shotgun DA" is when you use the same link card to impact out uniquely distinct impacts. The only way PMR can really make something out of the MOC DA's is golden turning, but golden turning Neg offense and making that Aff offense is really difficult.)

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Could you give an example?

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:57 pm 
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Easy win for gov. if they had a good case.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:33 pm 
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Simon Sefzik wrote:
Could you give an example?


Not really. It would absolutely depend on what the topic was. Offhand though, shotgun DA's are essentially the same link card but each DA has a single impact. /Ariktalkingagain

atshelton wrote:
Easy win for gov. if they had a good case.


Eh, not really, if OPP runs the DA game effectively. What GOV would need to do to win is take out the shared link between the DA's, but even there, OPP could add additional links and internal links to counteract that.

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As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. -Psalm 42:1


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:22 am 
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Evan wrote:
What GOV would need to do to win is take out the shared link between the DA's, but even there, OPP could add additional links and internal links to counteract that.


You are correct they could attack/turn the link which would win them the round. Or they could outweigh with their case using a weighing mechanism and impact calculus. Or they could take out the uniqueness. You literally just have to be able to do one of those to win. Or you can do multiple. A better neg strategy would be to run a few large DAs with several independent links and a couple of impacts as well as mitigating Aff case.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:18 am 
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PMR turns all the MOC's DAs to high heavens. Impact calc. Can't point of order because its the first chance to respond, can't respond because PMR. Gov ballot. Never run new DAs in the MOC.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:20 pm 
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LocutusofBorg wrote:
PMR turns all the MOC's DAs to high heavens. Impact calc. Can't point of order because its the first chance to respond, can't respond because PMR. Gov ballot. Never run new DAs in the MOC.


Sure, except...
Evan wrote:
The only way PMR can really make something out of the MOC DA's is golden turning, but golden turning Neg offense and making that Aff offense is really difficult.)


So really what the PMR is left with, potentially, is having to waste time dishing out 5 golden turn arguments, on top of 5 additional DA's that were run in the LOC. It's true that GOV could win on outweighing the DA's, but if there's so many and one of gets dropped, it may not matter. While I do agree that highly structured, unique DA's are best, shotgun DA's are a good strategy for when Neg has limited offensive capabilities (i.e. metaphors) and you want to be able to put a lot on the flow with the same link.

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As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. -Psalm 42:1


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:14 pm 
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Then just find the one that outweighs everything abd win on that. If the neg doesn't collapse then you'll be winning multiple places (assuming you know how to deal with being spread out). Collapse to what you're winning, impact that, and win.

What most debaters don't understand is that the vast majorityof judges, lay and flow alike, want one our two concise, powerful arguments they can vote on. When the neg doesn't collapse they just have to hope the aff gets distracted by all the pretty ink. The ability to collapse well after the first couple speeches spread like crazy is the difference between a good and great debater.

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Google it, we're the second link that pops up. We're pretty proud of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:39 pm 
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If it's one card and multiple impacts all from the one card, then you've find the lynch pin. Link turn or just spend the vast overwhelming majority of your time on the link.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:54 pm 
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This is a really inadvisable strategy. You're pinning everything on a couple links, and if they get turned your entire neg strat is shot. And as pointed out, the PMR can make new points against your second set of DAs without response...

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun DA's Forever
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:06 pm 
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John III is right – any DAs coming from the MO should have their links turned. The reasons don't even have to be good. There's no chance to respond so the response stands.

What's missing from the assumptions of the original question is this basic skill, though: arguing importance.

MG can argue GOV advantages outweigh, can use the standard of the round to exclude the DA impacts, and so on. What I have done in this situation (I've been hit with 13 alleged DAs from the LOC and won) is turn one important DA vignette then argue that it outweighs the other impacts, and OPP already agreed to its importance by proferring the DA in the first place.

So there are many ways to take this, but you unlock them when you stop thinking of "5 DAs" as equal arguments. Look for the relative importance of arguments, articulate that, and you're good.

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