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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:57 am 
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Hint hint peoples.
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There's going to be a Clash/Modesto mini debate qualifier February 2-4. So far on the StoaUSA calendar, they have only listed TP and LD as debate events being offered. But, I've heard rumors that the head hanchos of the tournament are trying to add Parli. (especially since Mr. Clark, coach of Clash, is a huge Parli supporter and is one of the leaders in the movement to get Parli be a NITOC event).

Are the rumors true? Is Parli going to be an event at Valley Christian?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:56 pm 
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The rumors will be confirmed or denied when registration opens up.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:39 am 
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Let's be real here.

I get that you really want Parli to work in Stoa, but I can't help but feel you're really not considering all the implications this entails.

1) First, and most importantly, if Stoa parent judges regularly disregard counter plans, how do you think they're going to feel about Cap bad advocacy/Trichot?

2) Remember that for all these tournaments, behind every hour of debate, there's two hours of tabulation. All those parents working until midnight -- hey, may as well just throw in an extra debate event, so we can all stay until 2:00 AM.

3) College Parli ONLY runs on time because judges have no problem awarding a ballot to the other side at five minutes on the dot EVEN IF the other team is walking in the door. A parent judge will happily sit and wait twenty minutes (and it only takes one) for a team to show up. There's no amount of yelling and threatening that can be done; parents are simply old softies. ;)

4) Parli entails a lot of extra work for a lot of extra criticism. After reading your (Paradigm's) comments on the CUI Parli thread, I can't help but think there are probably many others like you, slightly under-appreciative of the work coaches and parents put into setting up these tournaments, only to have the resolutions not meet your standards. I hope you don't take too much offense at this, because you're certainly not alone.

I judged IEs (impromptu) once, and only once. After waiting over thirty minutes, the fifth speaker ran in, out of breath, apologizing that he was late. I later found out there were two kids from California teams sitting in the hallway, refusing to go first. Why? Because they thought that if they didn't go first, they'd get higher ranks.

And everyone wonders why coaches aren't signing up in droves for Parli.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:34 am 
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Mr. Pockets wrote:
Let's be real here.

I get that you really want Parli to work in Stoa, but I can't help but feel you're really not considering all the implications this entails.

1) First, and most importantly, if Stoa parent judges regularly disregard counter plans, how do you think they're going to feel about Cap bad advocacy/Trichot?

2) Remember that for all these tournaments, behind every hour of debate, there's two hours of tabulation. All those parents working until midnight -- hey, may as well just throw in an extra debate event, so we can all stay until 2:00 AM.

3) College Parli ONLY runs on time because judges have no problem awarding a ballot to the other side at five minutes on the dot EVEN IF the other team is walking in the door. A parent judge will happily sit and wait twenty minutes (and it only takes one) for a team to show up. There's no amount of yelling and threatening that can be done; parents are simply old softies. ;)

4) Parli entails a lot of extra work for a lot of extra criticism. After reading your (Paradigm's) comments on the CUI Parli thread, I can't help but think there are probably many others like you, slightly under-appreciative of the work coaches and parents put into setting up these tournaments, only to have the resolutions not meet your standards. I hope you don't take too much offense at this, because you're certainly not alone.

I judged IEs (impromptu) once, and only once. After waiting over thirty minutes, the fifth speaker ran in, out of breath, apologizing that he was late. I later found out there were two kids from California teams sitting in the hallway, refusing to go first. Why? Because they thought that if they didn't go first, they'd get higher ranks.

And everyone wonders why coaches aren't signing up in droves for Parli.


I understand your concerns, and I'm not offended at your tone. These are legitimate issues that need to be discussed.

Having said that,

1.) this is not a reason to not bring Parli to STOA. Actually, STOA DOES run Parli. The whole debate is over getting it as a NITOC event and in California tournaments. This argument is a blanket generalization that is not necessarily true. Granted, some judges automatically don't like counter plans/anti values/balanced negs, etc. But the way you make many judges to be like is that they are simply always going to vote for the simpelest, least-"debater-ish" cases and dont have minds of their own. This is, quite frankly, very insulting to the many judges who work for our STOA tournaments. I might be misinterpreting your statement, and I'm sorry if I sound mean, but what I think your saying is that Parli should not be an event because judges aren't capable of judging it. (Hint: there's a brand new thing called "orientations." And many parents/community judges are already somewhat experienced in judging Parli rounds.)

2.) I understand the amount of work tab needs to do in order to keep a tournament running smoothly. For mega-California tournaments with 11 IE's and two debate events already, Parli might not be able to be scheduled in. But there's no reason why you can't have debate-only tournaments (such as VCC) or debate plus certain speech events.

3.) this was already sort of addressed in points 1 and 2.

4.) ????? Where in the world did you get the idea that I'm not appreciative of the work tournaments entail? Again, my responses in #1-2 sort of addressed this idea. My comments on the CUI thread were NOT because I didn't like the Parli resolutions offered. I was talking about how one had to give up their speech events for Parli rounds that didn't even count for anything. You essentially did no speech in order to do two Parli rounds. I probably should have had a better tone/way to have communicated my thoughts. You seem to think that people are always ready to immediately criticise tournament directors for almost anything, including Parli. What you're saying is that "Parli is a whole lot of work for nothing but critisism." well, that's just flat-out wrong. I could go on about the myriad of benefits of Parli, how students so appreciate and love doing Parli, etc. Granted, some people don't appreciate the work that coaches put into a tournament. But those people can hardly be called the majority, let alone a sizable minority of STOA. And it is simply absurd to assert that all Parliamentarians are unthankful.

Re: your judging experience: I'm sorry you had to go through that. I sincerely am. But again, this does not prove anything about why Parli is bad. It simply proves that some random CA kids were trolling for higher rankings by holding up the tournament.

Again, I hope I didn't offend you with anything I just said. Discussing and working out these issues is beneficial for STOA. And we need to do so with humble hearts, prayer, and having our words seasoned with salt.

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As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. -Psalm 42:1


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:34 pm 
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ParadigmPWNS wrote:
1.) this is not a reason to not bring Parli to STOA. Actually, STOA DOES run Parli. The whole debate is over getting it as a NITOC event and in California tournaments. This argument is a blanket generalization that is not necessarily true. Granted, some judges automatically don't like counter plans/anti values/balanced negs, etc. But the way you make many judges to be like is that they are simply always going to vote for the simpelest, least-"debater-ish" cases and dont have minds of their own. This is, quite frankly, very insulting to the many judges who work for our STOA tournaments. I might be misinterpreting your statement, and I'm sorry if I sound mean, but what I think your saying is that Parli should not be an event because judges aren't capable of judging it. (Hint: there's a brand new thing called "orientations." And many parents/community judges are already somewhat experienced in judging Parli rounds.)


While I'm certainly not implying that all parent judges are incapable of fairly looking at a highly technical theory-heavy debate round, I am definitely implying that an overwhelmingly large amount are. When you have multiple judges in the judging pool that simply will not vote for a counterplan in team policy because they think it's "unfair" (regardless of articulation by the other side), I can promise you easily six out of seven parent judges will not be able to vote fairly or consistently on positions that run exclusively/primarily in Parli.

Arguably, the existence of orientation is counter productive to Parli debate (unlike TP or LD), because it is assumed that the debaters agree upon the rules by consent, excluding the no-written-evidence rule. The parli culture shapes "the rules", not an orientation.

By some parent/community judges, I presume you're referring to the minority of parents that judge on behalf of the college their now-Stoa-alumni debates at. I can think of a grand total of two to three parent judges that fall under this category. Excluding alumni, which would realistically have to be the backbone of the operation, you're simply not going to get the parent judges.

Also, in our club alone, I have examples of parents who are great TP judges, but are absolutely terrified of having to vote for kids based on theory, so they don't judge at all/judge LD. I can't help but think this rings true for other clubs, too, so even (some of) the parents that would normally judge TP won't judge Parli.

Quote:
2.) I understand the amount of work tab needs to do in order to keep a tournament running smoothly. For mega-California tournaments with 11 IE's and two debate events already, Parli might not be able to be scheduled in. But there's no reason why you can't have debate-only tournaments (such as VCC) or debate plus certain speech events.


Interestingly enough, it's the debate side of things that take most of the tab room time (according to people who work tab I've talked to about this). With that said though, if Parli was going to work, it would almost definitely have to be at a debate-only tournament -- though it seems very unlikely this would work well at a national-level tournament like NITOC.

Quote:
3.) this was already sort of addressed in points 1 and 2.


Not entirely. Orientation, as I already sort of touched on, is not going to solve for the mindset. With parli, everything should be set up on a timetable. If a judge's feedback is too long, a team takes too long to show up, etc, this single action can eliminate final rounds (and this has happened at several parli tournaments in the SoCal area). The Stoa atmosphere is significantly more laid back, like it or not, and the likelihood of lateness is virtually a given.

Quote:
[...]My comments on the CUI thread were NOT because I didn't like the Parli resolutions offered.


I didn't say you did. My point was that some Stoa kids have a habit of bad-mouthing things they don't fully understand (including resolution choices, ballots, whathaveyou). I appreciate that you had complaints about how Parli was run at a specific tournament -- regardless of whether you meant to or not, you came across on that thread like you were ungrateful. You say you're not, and I believe you. Not quite the same story for other kids that will invariably whine about resolutions choices, etc. Again, this is non-unique -- no amount of orientation, pleading or threatening is going to be able to fix this. Impact, parents/coaches are less interested in setting extra events up for seemingly-ungrateful kids.

Quote:
I could go on about the myriad of benefits of Parli, how students so appreciate and love doing Parli, etc.


Students, you included, obviously enjoy doing Parli. Personally, I like Parli better than TP and LD in terms of educational benefits. However, Stoaers don't actually articulate this except when they don't have it (i.e, currently).

Quote:
Granted, some people don't appreciate the work that coaches put into a tournament. But those people can hardly be called the majority, let alone a sizable minority of STOA. And it is simply absurd to assert that all Parliamentarians are unthankful.


No one is saying all Stoa Parli debaters would be ungrateful -- I'd even go so far as to assert maybe 10-15% of the kids would bad-mouth tournaments/coaches/parent judges/resolutions. Definitely the minority. But when an even smaller number of kids go up to parent judges that gave them a bad ballot and openly thank them for their feedback and time, this leaves a void of roughly 80% of the kids that just stay neutrally silent.

My thought is basically this -- if even a fourth of the students went out of their way to be openly thankful and appreciative to the tab staff, directors, parent judges, and so on, the decision-makers that be would be a lot more likely to put in extra effort. Sure, it would still be sloppy-ish, final rounds would have to be cut, you'd get a whole bunch of iffy debates, etc, but it would be there.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:42 pm 
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While I'm certainly not implying that all parent judges are incapable of fairly looking at a highly technical theory-heavy debate round, I am definitely implying that an overwhelmingly large amount are. When you have multiple judges in the judging pool that simply will not vote for a counterplan in team policy because they think it's "unfair" (regardless of articulation by the other side), I can promise you easily six out of seven parent judges will not be able to vote fairly or consistently on positions that run exclusively/primarily in Parli.


FWIW, a lot of BP/APDA parli judges also wouldn't vote on some NPDA theory. Parli doesn't have to be super theoretical :).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:01 pm 
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I thought about that as I was writing it, but something tells me APDA-style (and even more so BP) isn't super likely to fly, considering the rather large amount of alumni (In California, at least) that are now in NPDA. :p


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Mr. Pockets wrote:
I thought about that as I was writing it, but something tells me APDA-style (and even more so BP) isn't super likely to fly, considering the rather large amount of alumni (In California, at least) that are now in NPDA. :p


Yeah, I can definitely see that.

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