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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 6:20 pm 
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I don't know what to do. Evan?

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 6:56 pm 
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Wow, thanks for the PM bomb SuperK. That cements my view on InvisiHand. Him doubting me, a confirmed good? Lol

Let's look at it this way: both Sharkfin and InvisiHand have good reason for us to doubt them. But InvisiHand has done nothing but be a menace to the good team, while Sharkfin has generally tried to be helpful, and his mistake could easily be just that: a mistake. InvisiHand has a consistent track record of harming our efforts and giving us little to nothing in return to justify his living.

Also, just a thought: while a lawyer was almost certainly in play last phase, perhaps Caleb and Sharkfin are both evil and attempting to bus so one of them gets out alive? Unlikely but a possibility I wanted to toss out there.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:00 pm 
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:lol: :lol: I don't ever doubt you in those pms. SuperK is the one who thinks that you are potentially taking information from other investigates and am evil I actually defended you.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:03 pm 
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Unless me saying I'm 1% suspicious of you counts lol.

I haven't been a menace you have no strong warrants for that. I reported SuperK's investigate result I argued in thread we lynched Hammy, Hammy agreed with my logic and said his death gained us the most information.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Neither of us doubted you. What he said is that a particular death would gain more info. I said no, because whatever I said, and he said that what I said was wrong, so we went into a debate about why that death would or wouldn't give us the info he said it would, and you were part of it. I was saying you won't be any more trustworthy than you are now. Which is pretty trustworthy.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:15 pm 
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SuperK1 wrote:
Neither of us doubted you. What he said is that a particular death would gain more info. I said no, because whatever I said, and he said that what I said was wrong, so we went into a debate about why that death would or wouldn't give us the info he said it would, and you were part of it. I was saying you won't be any more trustworthy than you are now. Which is pretty trustworthy.


I agree that's a pretty fair assessment. Evan, I never questioned your allegiance SuperK is right.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:45 pm 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
1. Cashley is wrong
Cashley was reporting that he had an investigate on Hammy which said he was evil you know as well as I do that evil investigate result=lynch.

And yet you knew that lawyers were in play. There's no reason that evil investigate=lynch.

Quote:
2. Faked Conversation
Riddle me this batman why would I have faked that conversation? I wanted to lynch Hammy not Brett faking that conversation was literally the most counter productive thing I could do. I mean seriously give me an answer as to how that fake conversation makes any sense form the perspective of a mafia Cashley.

Because mafia Cashley doesn't actually care about who gets lynched. Either way, we'd have mislynched someone.

Quote:
3. Hammy's not dumb
n8 claimed to me to have traded with at least a few other players including Gabe(so Gabe said when I asked him who he traded with) so his power was well known. n8 was op he had an investigate where he could combine lines of different rpms and have the gm confirm the validity of each separate line so literally he had 4 investigates per phase. I can post the rpm in thread if you want proof of that. So mafia wanted to kill him because he was op.Hammy having traded with n8(I believe this but am not 100% sure) knew this and took advantage of the situation to try and use his power to kill mafia.

This actually makes a lot of sense now. I didn't know n8's role.

Quote:
if I was a decent player I would have lawyered myself if I was evil.

Lawyering me has the same effect.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:29 pm 
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Sharkfin wrote:
\
And yet you knew that lawyers were in play. There's no reason that evil investigate=lynch.

Because mafia Cashley doesn't actually care about who gets lynched. Either way, we'd have mislynched someone.


This actually makes a lot of sense now. I didn't know n8's role.

Lawyering me has the same effect.


At that point in the game, we didn't know whether or not there was a lawyer. That was actually part of my argument about lynching Hammy his death would have told us at that point whether there was a lawyer. I was actually trying to gain us more info.

But mafia Cashley would want things to be clean and Hammy was the easier target. The vote was going against him at the moment and he looked like a goner. Strategically I gained nothing by accusing Brett at that point I should have waited until next phase and leveraged it into a lynch since Brett was already sketchy.

Lawyering you does have the same effect technically but in reality it doesn't. As always there is a limited number of mafia so the goal is to make sure a mafia member doesn't get exposed. Therefore the more beneficial play is to use the lawyer on the mafia player to clear them. That argument applies to you as well, but Evan and Superk had publicly aired their suspicions of me in thread so it probably seemed like I was a guaranteed investigate target by one or maybe both of them.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:10 pm 
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That's not a thread-bomb is it?

Evan, should I keep my vote on Sharkfin, or move it to Invisible Hand again?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:07 am 
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Quote:
Lawyering you does have the same effect technically but in reality it doesn't. As always there is a limited number of mafia so the goal is to make sure a mafia member doesn't get exposed. Therefore the more beneficial play is to use the lawyer on the mafia player to clear them.

The investigate doesn't clear anyone whenever we turn up the same way and we know that there's a lawyer in play. It's either you or me. There's no way to tell who was lawyered and who wasn't.

In the words of Brett Hungar, fallen hero and defender of the townspeople, "I like how your reason for suspecting Hammy is mutually inconsistent with your reason for suspecting me. Yet somehow, you end up with a world where we should both receive the attention of the lynching mob." Cashley knew Hammy was being investigated N2 (which explains the lawyer), he encouraged me to redirect Hammy, he's advocated for the lynch of townspeople, and more than likely faked a PM conversation.

He's the hand behind the puppet strings, and you have the scissors, fellow townfolk.

All pompous language aside, here's my final reasons why you should vote for Cashley: I'm putting my life on the line. I claimed a redirect--if I were evil there's no way I'd want to admit to be the person who screwed up Hammy's plan. I would have known n8's power (I didn't as of a few posts ago). I wouldn't risk my life (one of, what, two/three mafias left?) just to get Cashley lynched. But that's exactly what I'm doing.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:12 am 
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So who's the other lawyer? Or are you both mafia?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:37 am 
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SuperK1 wrote:
So who's the other lawyer? Or are you both mafia?

I suggest the most likely outcome is that there's only one lawyer. Whichever of us isn't mafia had the other lawyered, triggering a 1 on 1 showdown.

Yeah, both of us could be mafia, but Cashley wasn't exactly in the center spotlight of accusation before I came out and accused him--why bother getting into a 1v1 with two mafia if neither are in danger before?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:50 am 
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Why would the good person do that? They would lawyer someone they thought they was evil? What good would that do? Whichever of you WAS mafia would've been more likely to do that, right?

Because you wanted to confirm yourself?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:55 am 
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Sharkfin wrote:
Quote:
Lawyering you does have the same effect technically but in reality it doesn't. As always there is a limited number of mafia so the goal is to make sure a mafia member doesn't get exposed. Therefore the more beneficial play is to use the lawyer on the mafia player to clear them.

The investigate doesn't clear anyone whenever we turn up the same way and we know that there's a lawyer in play. It's either you or me. There's no way to tell who was lawyered and who wasn't.



You intentionally don't quote the second part of that paragraph where I acknowledge that and explain why it is still more likely I would have lawyered myself if I was evil. Good players don't do that.

Sharkfin wrote:
In the words of Brett Hungar, fallen hero and defender of the townspeople, "I like how your reason for suspecting Hammy is mutually inconsistent with your reason for suspecting me. Yet somehow, you end up with a world where we should both receive the attention of the lynching mob." Cashley knew Hammy was being investigated N2 (which explains the lawyer), he encouraged me to redirect Hammy, he's advocated for the lynch of townspeople, and more than likely faked a PM conversation.

He's the hand behind the puppet strings, and you have the scissors, fellow townfolk.

All pompous language aside, here's my final reasons why you should vote for Cashley: I'm putting my life on the line. I claimed a redirect--if I were evil there's no way I'd want to admit to be the person who screwed up Hammy's plan. I would have known n8's power (I didn't as of a few posts ago). I wouldn't risk my life (one of, what, two/three mafias left?) just to get Cashley lynched. But that's exactly what I'm doing.


We've talked about the fake conversation and you know full well that me faking it makes no sense you didn't even address my latest response to that in thread so using it as an argument is disingenuous at best.

I was more suspicious in thread of Brett than Hammy mostly because of the denial of the fake conversation but in the words of fallen hero Hammy Folkert lynching him yielded more info especially with Brett's power claim.

We all knew Hammy was going to be investigated. An investigate publicly posted in thread that he wanted Hammy investigated and he acting sketchy as bleep so it didn't take a rocket scientist or even a village to figure out that Hammy was a good lawyer target. N8 would have been too except for his rpm said he came up evil on investigates the first two nights.

You didn't admit to it we figured it out on our own lol. You had no choice at that point because you were claiming a redirect. And we're just supposed to believe you didn't know n8's power ehhhh no proof there feels like you are stretching. And right you wouldn't except that if you didn't I was going to get you lynched.

Sharky argues that I wasn't a lynch target. If that is true all his reasoning about mafia not sticking their necks out rings true for me as well and his own logic works against him. But actually I was a lynch target if you go read the thread so he is ignoring that in an attempt to bolster his argument.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:57 am 
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SuperK1 wrote:
Why would the good person do that? They would lawyer someone they thought they was evil? What good would that do? Whichever of you WAS mafia would've been more likely to do that, right?

Because you wanted to confirm yourself?


Right that is what I said in my earlier post. Basically I almost got lynched last day phase and I was probably the most suspicious player so I was the obvious investigate target. And therefore the most obvious player to use a lawyer on. Sure sharky was suspicious but he didn't seem as suspicious to even you or Evan as I did(see ya'lls attempted lynch of me in thread) so it was a solid proposition that I would be investigated while there was a slightly smaller probability Sharky would be investigated.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:08 am 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
You intentionally don't quote the second part of that paragraph where I acknowledge that and explain why it is still more likely I would have lawyered myself if I was evil. Good players don't do that.

I recognized your probability argument. But you knew the good side has 3 (4?) investigates. There's no way we both wouldn't be investigated.

Again, there's no way to tell who was lawyered.

Quote:
We've talked about the fake conversation and you know full well that me faking it makes no sense you didn't even address my latest response to that in thread so using it as an argument is disingenuous at best.

Because we reached stasis. As a mafia, I would prefer a fuzzy game over a clean kill, as long as the suspicion was all on people I knew were townspeople. You apparently disagree. I'm comfortable leaving that to the voters to decide.

We all knew Hammy was going to be investigated. An investigate publicly posted in thread that he wanted Hammy investigated and he acting sketchy as bleep so it didn't take a rocket scientist or even a village to figure out that Hammy was a good lawyer target. N8 would have been too except for his rpm said he came up evil on investigates the first two nights.

Quote:
You didn't admit to it we figured it out on our own lol. You had no choice at that point because you were claiming a redirect.

Only Brett knew that I had a redirect (unless he told someone), which is why he shared Hammy's plan with me--so we could evaluate if it made sense.

Quote:
Sharky argues that I wasn't a lynch target. If that is true all his reasoning about mafia not sticking their necks out rings true for me as well and his own logic works against him.

Except not, because you were able to cast doubt and get several at least two (maybe three) people lynched before attracting suspicion. I've only got one shot.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:13 am 
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SuperK1 wrote:
Why would the good person do that? They would lawyer someone they thought they was evil? What good would that do? Whichever of you WAS mafia would've been more likely to do that, right?

Because you wanted to confirm yourself?

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to, but the good side doesn't have a lawyer power.

The mafia have two ways of avoiding being lynched this round--they can either lawyer the good player, to make the good appear evil, or lawyer the maf, to make them appear good. Either way, we can't trust the investigate and the maf are hoping for a mislynch.

Cashley's arguing that it's more likely that if he was the mafia we'd both appear good. I'm arguing that it makes no difference whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:24 am 
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Sharkfin wrote:
I recognized your probability argument. But you knew the good side has 3 (4?) investigates. There's no way we both wouldn't be investigated.

Again, there's no way to tell who was lawyered.

Because we reached stasis. As a mafia, I would prefer a fuzzy game over a clean kill, as long as the suspicion was all on people I knew were townspeople. You apparently disagree. I'm comfortable leaving that to the voters to decide.

Only Brett knew that I had a redirect (unless he told someone), which is why he shared Hammy's plan with me--so we could evaluate if it made sense.

Except not, because you were able to cast doubt and get several at least two (maybe three) people lynched before attracting suspicion. I've only got one shot.


2 investigates plus a 50/50(which that player should have used their other power to block me or sharky) which may or may not have been used. So probably yes, but if the two investigates didn't work together they both seemed more suspicious of me so it seemed like if one player would get two investigates it would be me.

Right I agree a fuzzy game is fine for evil, but I wouldn't make a game unnecessarily fuzzy when town has already essentially reached a lynch decision. I would wait until the next phase and make things fuzzy. Message clarity is key even for mafia if a mafia player makes things too confusing it will backfire and I also would have known that faking those messages would bring an all out response from Brett who would clearly deny them if he hadn't written them. His denial coupled with his subsequent death which is what you claim I caused would make me look sketchy as can be and would therefore have been an awful strategy for me.

But you just said I was the only player who knew you had a redirect. Which is it?

Yeah sure, but I've also been a prime lynch target every phase pretty much. You on the other hand have not until this phase.

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Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:46 am 
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Don't do this to me, people! I don't have time to read pages of well-thought-out arguments from smart people!

OK, so I don't have time to process all the arguments. But I've suspected Sharky ever since the Hammy/Brett fiasco, and I feel like there's a high probability he's a maf. So I'm going to vote Sharkfin. Yeah, Cashley's still shady, and if Sharky turns good we can definitely lynch Cashley tomorrow. But I can't justify letting the shark off the hook (ooh, see what I did there?) when he's seemed so sketch for a while now. Lurking, had knowledge of Hammy's plan, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:32 am 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
But you just said I was the only player who knew you had a redirect. Which is it?

Wait, nvm, I was confused. You used the phrase "figured it out" and I forgot that you were the one who planted the idea of redirecting Hammy in my head in the first place. dang you're good.

Anyway, since Ginga voted looks like I'm dying (unless nerdripper is on eastern? in which case I think the vote is a tie since Ginga's was at 12:45 EDT?). Gg, well played evil.

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