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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:21 pm 
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Hint hint peoples.
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The Ginga Ninja wrote:
he's been repeatedly accusing me, and because Thor told me to. If you kill, then when I am revealed good, Evan seems like your best bet.


Completely illogical reason to vote/cast shade on me. I have been suspicious of you since day 1, when there wasn't a convert and I was confirmed good. My continued suspicion is no indicator of whether or not I was converted.

Having said that, if we're wrong and GN is good, feel free to take me down. I am not a fan of dying but if you need to take me out to confirm I'm not the convert, then so be it D:

Food for thought: If I was really evil, why would I be so willing to be open and honest with the block and so willing to die for the greater cause? As far as I am concerned, the kill is a perfect cover for a convert, which makes GN all the more dangerous. Pre conversion he was killing baddies, post conversion he has killed a townie. It simply makes sense. That, and Johnny asked him to do it, which gives him good leader sanction in his defense as an added bonus.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:35 pm 
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Evan wrote:
Food for thought: If I was really evil, why would I be so willing to be open and honest with the block and so willing to die for the greater cause? As far as I am concerned, the kill is a perfect cover for a convert, which makes GN all the more dangerous. Pre conversion he was killing baddies, post conversion he has killed a townie.

Why are you honest that you were blocked? Because it first glance it seems beneficial - someone dies but you were blocked therefore you didn't kill anyone. However, I think you did make a mistake, and now you're trying to cover for it. But literally any scumslip can be explained away by saying "oh well if I were evil I wouldn't have said this!" I don't think that's a good enough reason. And as TIH pointed out - in nicer words - your power is unblockable whereas GN's is blockable, so you're the more dangerous potential mafia atm.

Additionally, I still haven't seen any plausible reason evil!GN would have withheld his kill two nights ago.

ALSO I see in the mafia signups thread there's a mini hall of fame section and one of the categories is longest thread; I'm pretty sure this game deserves to take that place, especially since it's exploded two or three times now :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:45 pm 
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OK, look. Yes, I killed Mr. Glasses. Not because I wanted to kill a good guy, but because we all established a plan together in which I would target one of three, the next would by lynched, and the third killed by a mystery vig. Now, because I followed a plan we all agreed to, I'm being accused of being a mafia. That simply doesn't hold up. We need to remember that there's no grand conspiracy anymore. There's one convert. Everyone is accusing everyone and everyone is paranoid, but we're in a position for a strong victory if we can stop attacking each other and think about this logically. Yes, I understand that it's not a good thing to kill a townie. But I targeted who I targeted because you people asked me to. You cannot in good conscience accuse me of being evil for following the agreed-upon plan.

As far as my own suspicions, I would recommend we continue with the plan from before. Either Johnny or Evan gets lynched today, and the other killed tonight. I'm voting Evan because Thor If somehow that still doesn't work, then we can evaluate our options, and if you all deem it necessary, you can kill me then. But we had a plan, and abandoning it to kill someone who was simply following along with said plan is simply not a good idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:00 am 
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Look, guys, I'm simply being honest here. As Caleb cynically said idk how many pages ago, everyone's trying to act nice and say it'd be ok if they died simply to not be branded mafia. But I'm not covering for a scumslip because there's simply nothing to cover up. The facts are the facts: Cyberknight send me a PM saying I got blocked. It's his first game, and he probably didn't realize you usually don't send those PMs unless the user took a night action.

Therefore, the "I wouldn't say this if I was maf" defense, while usually lame, I think is very relevant here. In a situation where we know there was a convert (only one maf left), why would I try to stick out like a sore thumb over this? I mean, Eff tried my defense and lo and behold, she was maf. Why would I pull from the same playbook if I WAS MAF? It'd be stupid of me and obvious that I was desperate to live because I was evil.

Furthermore, with GN's vote, we have a tied vote now. If nobody dies, that is a more optimal outcome for him as opposed to him dying (obviously), and if someone switches to me he knows he can get another innocent dead. Tactical vote rigging before the deadline (which I think should be coming up shortly): another maftell.

Johnnyw256 wrote:
Additionally, I still haven't seen any plausible reason evil!GN would have withheld his kill two nights ago.


Easy. To not look evil and follow good's orders so he wouldn't be found out. Note how much GN is begging for his life on the basis of the "agreed-upon plan." Again, perfect cover coming in play here. Don't kill me, he says, because I'm simply following what Johnny is telling me to do. If GN is the last remaining maf, it is double perfect cover for him to (a) still claim to be the vig and (b) just placidly follow what Johnny tells him to do, all under the guise of "maintaining the plan." Don't fall for the trap.

If I'm wrong, you can go right back to the plan if you wish. There's no harm done. Someone who we know has a kill is far more dangerous than someone we only know has a double vote. (Again, that doesn't mean it's a guarantee I'm not evil and have a nightkill, but you get what I mean. GN = confirmed nightkill, me = confirmed double vote.) Yes, my power is unblockable, but you're not thinking this all the way through. Nightkill's power is far > double vote power.

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As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. -Psalm 42:1


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:22 am 
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Look, guys. I'm also simply being honest here. There is literally no evidence to support me being mafia. If I'd refused to follow Johnny's plan, you would all have suspected me of being evil, and tried to lynch me. Because I did follow Johnny's plan, you all suspect me of being evil, and are trying to lynch me. Evan is trying to argue that my following the plan was merely a cover-up. Yet what else should I have done? As a good guy, I would also have followed the plan. The fact that I followed the plan does not in any way make me evil, because as a townie I also would have chosen to follow the plan, because it was a good plan. Arguing that I'm evil on the basis of having followed the plan simply does not follow. Yes, Evan is free to try to accuse me. That's the point of mafia. But he's going to need some sort of evidence beyond, "Ginga followed the plan and a good guy died, let's kill him." That is not a valid argument. He tried to accuse me of rigging the vote. Problem is, everyone voted long before I showed up to make any arguments. I'm voting for Evan because he's desperately trying to get me killed, and I know that I'm not evil, which naturally makes me suspicious of him.

TL;DR:

Evan says I'm evil for 2 reasons:

1. I followed the plan and Mr. Glasses died
2. I'm voting for Evan, which is supposedly "Rigging the vote."

Neither of these arguments in any way makes me evil; I would be just as likely (probably more likely) to follow the plan if I'm good, and I'm voting for Evan because he's aggressively accusing me. How would you expect me to respond? I'm doing exactly what any innocent townie would do under the circumstances. Nothing I've done makes me evil.

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Benjamin Vincent, RII Alum
Biola University '21
www.lifeinthesunrise.com

"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:29 am 
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Last post before the phase end. Nothing personal, GN is a great guy, but I think since we're both saying the other is illogical, it's my duty to point out the holes in his arguments :P

He paints me as aggressively and desperately wanting him dead. Well...the only other option is me, so why wouldn't I? ;P It's not that I want to save myself, it's that I am aggressively wanting the bigger threat gone so we can move on.

He says my evidence is lacking. Um...the evidence against me is equally as lacking, if not more so. Just because I got blocked, I'm now automatically evil. Mmkay. Point being, we have no conclusive proof. Only circumstantial evidence. And the circumstantial evidence against GN is far stronger (albeit weak overall) than the very tenuous evidence against me. His actions resulted in a good guy death and would be covered perfectly; my actions can easily be countered/contained and I would have exactly zero logical reasons to do what I'm doing if I'm truly evil.

tl;dr: Neither of us have conclusive proof that the other is evil (or physically can have said proof), but the risks are far greater if he is evil than if I am evil, so GN should go.

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As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. -Psalm 42:1


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:30 am 
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There are two things that need to be remembered. First, if nobody dies, it doesn't mean that a kill was automatically withheld. There could have been a successful protect. This includes last night, which means that if Ginga Ninja is good, it doesn't automatically mean that Evan is evil. He would obviously be the next suspect in line, but not the only suspect.

Second, specifically to The Ginga Ninja. The reason we suspect you isn't because a good person died. We knew that that was likely to begin with. The reason you're under suspicion is because that was the only person who died. Now, the other kill could have been neutralized with either a block or a protect, but it also could be that your kill was changed in nature because of a convert, and I'm personally inclined to think that that's most likely. We don't have enough evidence to 100% accuse anyone at the moment, but I think you're the biggest threat.

As Evan said, if we assume that the powers aren't replaced, an extra nightkill is more dangerous than an extra vote. If they keep their powers, then there can be two mafia kills a night, which is more dangerous than one extra vote that we can easily overrule. After all, if The Ginga Ninja turns out good, everything will go to Evan, meaning he'll be both blocked and investigated.
If he's blocked and there's a nightkill, he'll be cleared. If he's blocked and an investigate comes back with him being good, then he's cleared. If neither of those things happen, then he would be the prime suspect, and would easily have his two votes outnumbered.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:34 am 
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I still think Evan is more likely to be evil than GN, but he's right about the votes. A tied vote is the worst-case scenario for good; we get no information and no dead evil person.

Evan. Unless Evan would like to unvote ;)

Ninja: I don't see how GN being evil is worse than you being evil. Honestly, one of the biggest reasons I think you should be lynched first is because I think evil!Evan is more dangerous. Regardless, I'm unvoting, so you're getting what you want anyways.
Double ninja: I see why you think GN is more dangerous. But he isn't. After all, we have two blocks; we just keep blocking Evan and GN and no nightkills should happen (barring yknow someone else being evil but that's unlikely). However, Evan's double vote isn't blockable, which means evil!Evan always has that open to him. That's why I find him more evil.
And also if GN *does* have two nightkills why hasn't he used them?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:34 am 
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Evan wrote:
tl;dr: Neither of us have conclusive proof that the other is evil (or physically can have said proof), but the risks are far greater if he is evil than if I am evil, so GN should go.


Agreed: Neither of us has conclusive proof. But claiming that the "risks are far greater" if I'm evil simply isn't true. Even if I was evil, I have (for some as yet unexplained reason) not chosen to kill anyone with any maf powers the past two nights. By contrast, if he is evil, then Evan has a night kill just like I do and the additional danger of his double-vote.

So basically: nothing personal, but Evan abandoning the previously-established plan because he wants to kill me on the basis of arguments he has admitted are extremely shaky at best seems very sketchy to me.

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"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:04 am 
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Johnnyw256 wrote:
However, Evan's double vote isn't blockable, which means evil!Evan always has that open to him. That's why I find him more evil.
And also if GN *does* have two nightkills why hasn't he used them?


I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't seem like that would make much of a difference since we outnumber him. If he's evil, we'll outnumber him easily and he'll die. But if he's confirmed good (either by investigate + block or nightkill happening + block) then his power will benefit us. The Ginga Ninja's power will get weaker as time goes on (if he's on our side), and Evan's will get stronger. So if we could keep Evan around, that would be best. But we don't want to get to the point where we would take risks with it. As things stand, there's very little to no risk involved in just keeping him alive today, because we outnumber him, but there is potential gain. On the other hand, there's also very little potential risk involved in leaving The Ginga Ninja alive another night, but there's less to gain. Either of them can be neutralized tomorrow night, so they're not an immediate danger. I guess it's less about how they pose a risk (because neither of them really is at this point) and more about what we'll be throwing away if we're wrong. Why take the same risk for smaller gain?

As for why he didn't use the second kill, there are a few potential reasons. One is that he did and somebody was protected. The second is that his power was replaced, like it worked last game. If that's the case, then Evan's double vote would also have been replaced if he were converted, so the danger level still isn't enough to change the situation.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:56 am 
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OK, so I sense I'm gonna die here, and there ain't a lot I can do about it. So noob question: do you have to survive to the end of the game to win? Or do townies who died still "win" if the good team fulfills its win condition?

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"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:05 am 
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You win as long as your win condition is fulfilled. So yes, in general, townies who die before the end still win if their faction wins.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:40 am 
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Unvote evan

Hope yall are right.

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Caleb

Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:05 am 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
Unvote evan

Hope yall are right.


They aren't.

Just saying.

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Benjamin Vincent, RII Alum
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"Everything in this world is either a potato... or not a potato."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:48 pm 
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In the midst of the Avengers' battle, the Hulk went berserk! In a combined effort, the Avengers and SH.I.E.L.D. tried to stop him...but they ended up destroying their most powerful hero.

The Ginga Ninja has died. He was good.

Night 6 begins now and ends at midnight on the 21st.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:06 pm 
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Can't say I'm surprised. Let's end this. Good players pm me so we can coordinate night actions.

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Caleb

Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:23 pm 
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Image

Well whoops.

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As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. -Psalm 42:1


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:38 am 
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What should I do?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:48 am 
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As a note to future Game Makers, stop putting converts in. They're overused and they break the game.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:27 am 
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Quote:
As a note to future Game Makers, stop putting converts in. They're overused and they break the game.

What exactly was "break the game" supposed to mean? :P I didn't want the game to end to early. ;) Also, it fit the story perfectly.

Also, is it okay if I end the night phase tonight at midnight, rather than tomorrow? I'm getting lots of actions.

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