homeschool debate | Forums Wiki

HomeSchoolDebate

Speech and Debate Resources and Community
Forums      Wiki
It is currently Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:00 am
Not a member? Guests can only see part of the forums. To see the whole thing (and add your voice!), just register a free account by following these steps.

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:01 pm
Posts: 20
Home Schooled: Yes
David Roth wrote:
Clare-Quilty wrote:
Each individual tax isn't some kind of business transaction, citizenship is a package deal. We get it warts and all.

How does a 'package deal' excuse theft? If I she'll out some hard earned money for the complete Mastodon discography, and my supplier fails to give me one of the albums, isn't that theft plain and simple?
So why does the government get to charge people for services they will never recieve?

I don't really care that my album set had 4 of 5. I care that I spent good money for the fifth album and didn't recieve it.
Similarly, I am perfectly content that my tax money supports the interstate which I use. That doesn't excuse taking my money in a separate levy to pay for something I don't use.


Hey David,
I guess what I was trying to say is that by accepting our US citizenship we submit ourselves to abide by the system of taxation that the government has in place. Now our current tax system isn't fair by any stretch of the imagination. However, it is not a form of theft because we willingly submit ourselves to it when we accept our citizenship. It is not theft because we have the choice to accept or reject the tax system.

I think I understand where you are coming from. The place we seem to differ is that you see citizenship as a carefully calculated purchase where everybody gets their moneys worth (which is what it would be in an ideal society). However, I see citizenship the way it seems to play out in the real world: An all or nothing deal that forces us to put up within unfair taxes and regulations in exchange for the privilege of being a US citizen. Within the system that is currently in place I don't think taxation is theft.
I sincerely apologize if I misrepresented your viewpoint, it was unintentional. Please correct me if I did.:)

_________________
‎"One should never believe everything one reads on the internet." -Abraham Lincoln


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:15 am
Posts: 41
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Reg10n (Massachusetts)
Masked Midnight wrote:
Taxation is not immoral. Being taxed to support those who don't pay taxes is.

// $0.02

Why not? Please explain/answer everything brought up throughout this thread.

_________________
"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:37 pm 
Offline
Old Man with a Beard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:11 am
Posts: 6763
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: California
Two basic errors in the discussion so far:
(1) The liberalism apparently shared by all parties. It is not the case that the "autonomous individual" is the sole or even fundamental locus of ethical consideration.
(2) The elevation of consent to an ethically absolute category. It is not the case that consensual actions are always ethical; it is not the case that non-consensual actions are always unethical.

_________________
"Be forbearing when you compare us
With those who were the perfection of order.
We who everywhere seek adventure,
We are not your enemies.
We would give you vast and strange domains
Where flowering mystery waits for him would pluck it."


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:15 am
Posts: 41
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Reg10n (Massachusetts)
Green Tea wrote:
(1) The liberalism apparently shared by all parties. It is not the case that the "autonomous individual" is the sole or even fundamental locus of ethical consideration.

How so?
Green Tea wrote:
(2) The elevation of consent to an ethically absolute category. It is not the case that consensual actions are always ethical; it is not the case that non-consensual actions are always unethical.

How so? Can you provide an example?

_________________
"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:44 am 
Offline
T-Rothasaurus
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:48 am
Posts: 3114
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Washington
birthdayfan wrote:
How so? Can you provide an example?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

_________________
"The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done." - Wyman Manderly


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:12 am 
Offline
T-Rothasaurus
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:48 am
Posts: 3114
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Washington
Clare-Quilty wrote:
I sincerely apologize if I misrepresented your viewpoint, it was unintentional. Please correct me if I did.
Not misrepresenting, just disagreeing. Which is way-cool with me. :)

Clare-Quilty wrote:
I think I understand where you are coming from. The place we seem to differ is that you see citizenship as a carefully calculated purchase where everybody gets their moneys worth (which is what it would be in an ideal society). However, I see citizenship the way it seems to play out in the real world: An all or nothing deal that forces us to put up within unfair taxes and regulations in exchange for the privilege of being a US citizen. Within the system that is currently in place I don't think taxation is theft.
The question is, did I accept the taxation system, or did I simply accept that unfair taxation was not worth the trouble of tearing up all my roots and moving and dealing with immigration and settling down in a new country with my limited financial resources?
If I get ripped off by an online retailer (*cough* or my community college *cough*) for a few (*cough* hundred *cough*)dollars, it is still theft even if I just say: "Meh, whatever. Life goes on."

Green Tea wrote:
(1) The liberalism apparently shared by all parties. It is not the case that the "autonomous individual" is the sole or even fundamental locus of ethical consideration.
I may be misunderstanding you, I am low on sleep this weekend. :) But isn't the freedom of action a very important consideration in ethics? To paraphrase one of the few things I agree with from Ayn Rand: "Morality Ends where a gun begins." If I am forced into taking an immoral action, I am less culpable than if I had done it of my unrestricted free will, (to be clear, I am certainly not absolved from it.) And the reverse is also true, if a man shows up at my door step with a gun and says: Donate your couch to the Salvation Army. Or I will shoot you. I have done something less morally praiseworthy than if I had went and given the couch myself.
Alternatively I could be completely misunderstanding you. :P

_________________
"The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done." - Wyman Manderly


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:01 pm
Posts: 20
Home Schooled: Yes
David Roth wrote:
Clare-Quilty wrote:
I think I understand where you are coming from. The place we seem to differ is that you see citizenship as a carefully calculated purchase where everybody gets their moneys worth (which is what it would be in an ideal society). However, I see citizenship the way it seems to play out in the real world: An all or nothing deal that forces us to put up within unfair taxes and regulations in exchange for the privilege of being a US citizen. Within the system that is currently in place I don't think taxation is theft.
The question is, did I accept the taxation system, or did I simply accept that unfair taxation was not worth the trouble of tearing up all my roots and moving and dealing with immigration and settling down in a new country with my limited financial resources?
If I get ripped off by an online retailer (*cough* or my community college *cough*) for a few (*cough* hundred *cough*)dollars, it is still theft even if I just say: "Meh, whatever. Life goes on."


Here is the problem I have with your online retailer analogy: Our relationship to the government is not like you to your retailer. All taxes are put in place by a governing body which is made up of representatives from the people being taxed. Which means you have a say in how much you are being taxed and how your taxes are used. The same is not true for your online dealer analogy.
All taxes were decided on by a majority vote.
The beauty of the democratic system in America is that we can have a say in how our government works, so if we think our taxes are not being used efficiently, we can try and change how they are being used.

_________________
‎"One should never believe everything one reads on the internet." -Abraham Lincoln


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:57 pm 
Offline
T-Rothasaurus
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:48 am
Posts: 3114
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Washington
But I personally have 100% say in what I purchase from an online retailer, it is perfectly democratic.

_________________
"The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done." - Wyman Manderly


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:01 pm
Posts: 20
Home Schooled: Yes
David Roth wrote:
But I personally have 100% say in what I purchase from an online retailer, it is perfectly democratic.

Agreed! That is exactly my point. Governments cannot work that way. We can't each individually tailor our entire government to fit our personal needs/desires the way we choose our specific purchases. Which is why I support limited government, it keeps someone else from imposing what they want from the government on me...
In other news, this conversation has completely deviated from the topic.:D

_________________
‎"One should never believe everything one reads on the internet." -Abraham Lincoln


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:55 pm 
Offline
Old Man with a Beard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:11 am
Posts: 6763
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: California
David Roth wrote:
But isn't the freedom of action a very important consideration in ethics? [...] If I am forced into taking an immoral action, I am less culpable than if I had done it of my unrestricted free will, (to be clear, I am certainly not absolved from it.)

I agree that the degree of restriction on an action can mitigate an ethical evaluation. What I intended to say, though, is that individuals qua individuals do not have a monopoly on ethical consideration. (Nor is it clear to me that such an analysis is really fundamental, but it could be.)

birthdayfan wrote:
How so? Can you provide an example?

Certain adulterous relationships can be mutually consentual, yet are unethical. Certain relations between parents and young children cannot be mutually consentual, yet are ethical.

_________________
"Be forbearing when you compare us
With those who were the perfection of order.
We who everywhere seek adventure,
We are not your enemies.
We would give you vast and strange domains
Where flowering mystery waits for him would pluck it."


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:15 am
Posts: 41
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Reg10n (Massachusetts)
Green Tea wrote:
birthdayfan wrote:
How so? Can you provide an example?

Certain adulterous relationships can be mutually consentual, yet are unethical. Certain relations between parents and young children cannot be mutually consentual, yet are ethical.

Actually, adultery, depending on the circumstance, could be fraud, thus not consensual. Also, it depends on your definition of adultery. Besides the implicit contract, from the parents to the child, created when parents choose to have a child, any coercion is unethical. Realize, this isn't an issue of theology. Whether or not the Christian faith allows is another discussion, whether or not it should be considered at all is also another discussion. We're discussing this from a rational standpoint, not irrational.

_________________
"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:41 am 
Offline
T-Rothasaurus
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:48 am
Posts: 3114
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Washington
Clare-Quilty wrote:
David Roth wrote:
But I personally have 100% say in what I purchase from an online retailer, it is perfectly democratic.

Agreed! That is exactly my point. Governments cannot work that way. We can't each individually tailor our entire government to fit our personal needs/desires the way we choose our specific purchases. Which is why I support limited government, it keeps someone else from imposing what they want from the government on me...
In other news, this conversation has completely deviated from the topic.:D
Well then I think this is where we disagree, :) whether or not I chose the government, whether or not it fits my specific needs, me paying taxes and not receiving the benefits of those is theft. (And conversely, me receiving benefits I paid no taxes for is theft on my part, unintentional, but the same thing.) It is theft we live with because our world is not a perfect one. :P

birthdayfan wrote:
Actually, adultery, depending on the circumstance, could be fraud, thus not consensual. Also, it depends on your definition of adultery.
I don't think that cuts it as a refutation. If there are only some circumstances in which it could be fraud, then there are circumstances where it is not fraud. Is there some other reason that it is non-consensual in the non-fraud cases? (I am completely lost to how Adultery could be fraud in the first place. But whatever.)

_________________
"The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done." - Wyman Manderly


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 2441
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Omaha, NE
Best book I've ever read on the subject is The Law by Frederic Bastiat.
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

I don't have time to really participate here, but Bastiat addresses and answers a lot of the issues you all seem to be asking.

And Masked Midnight, you'll be reading that book next year, assuming you take Intro to Political Economy. If you do, listen to every word Dr. Wolfram says about econ, the man's a genius, but be very skeptical of his philosophy--that'll mess you up.

_________________
-Bryan
Co-Founder of Olympus Forensics

Google it, we're the second link that pops up. We're pretty proud of that.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:15 am
Posts: 41
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Reg10n (Massachusetts)
LocutusofBorg wrote:
Best book I've ever read on the subject is The Law by Frederic Bastiat.
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

I don't have time to really participate here, but Bastiat addresses and answers a lot of the issues you all seem to be asking.

And Masked Midnight, you'll be reading that book next year, assuming you take Intro to Political Economy. If you do, listen to every word Dr. Wolfram says about econ, the man's a genius, but be very skeptical of his philosophy--that'll mess you up.

What's his philosophy?

_________________
"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:46 pm 
Offline
Old Man with a Beard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:11 am
Posts: 6763
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: California
It's probably spelled out in the very short book Locutus mentioned, to which he also happened to provide a link. I might start by looking there.

_________________
"Be forbearing when you compare us
With those who were the perfection of order.
We who everywhere seek adventure,
We are not your enemies.
We would give you vast and strange domains
Where flowering mystery waits for him would pluck it."


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Is taxation immoral?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 2441
Home Schooled: Yes
Location: Omaha, NE
birthdayfan wrote:
LocutusofBorg wrote:
Best book I've ever read on the subject is The Law by Frederic Bastiat.
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

I don't have time to really participate here, but Bastiat addresses and answers a lot of the issues you all seem to be asking.

And Masked Midnight, you'll be reading that book next year, assuming you take Intro to Political Economy. If you do, listen to every word Dr. Wolfram says about econ, the man's a genius, but be very skeptical of his philosophy--that'll mess you up.

What's his philosophy?

Green Tea wrote:
It's probably spelled out in the very short book Locutus mentioned, to which he also happened to provide a link. I might start by looking there.

I'm going to assume that he was referring to the second part of my post about Dr. Wolfram...

If you mean Bastiat, it's closest to modern-day libertariansim, but very different from the Ayn Rand justification for it. Bastiat argues taxes are ok if they are used for specific purposes, but I'm not able to do his work justice.

In regards to Dr. Wolfram, there is an unfortunate tendency in academia to believe that one's own field is the only one that should shape one's overall philosophy (or worldview if you prefer the term). I think Dr. Wolfram falls victim to that a lot of time when interpreting history, ethics, etc. He has a very utilitarian point of view. Don't get me wrong, the dude is brilliant and one of the most prominent Austrian economists in the world, and his classes are excellent for learning econ, but his philosophy is more...eh...

Relating that back to this thread, from an economic perspective taxes are necessary if you want to have anything resembling a nation-state You can debate the ethics all day long (although I think its a rather open-and-shut case that taxation is moral, to a degree), but assuming you want some sort of stability, taxes are necessary.

_________________
-Bryan
Co-Founder of Olympus Forensics

Google it, we're the second link that pops up. We're pretty proud of that.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited