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 Post subject: Rationality
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:06 am 
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Kenya debate as good as me?
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birthdayfan wrote:
3-point Calvinist

*sigh* 60% is like a D man!

;)

Jkidding - out of curiosity, why do you care about the promotion of rationality?

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:46 pm 
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Okay, maybe a *little* more important than Caleb...
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What is really meant by the promotion of rationality?

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:47 pm 
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1. I don't want to talk about Calvinism now - it's too stressful and time consuming at the moment.

2. I don't know what was meant by the promotion of rationality, but I think it's a fascinating life goal, and I really hope we hear from birthdayfan about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:11 pm 
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I'm sorry. I didn't see this thread.

1. Clarification: 3-point Calvinist means I believe in Total Depravity, Definite Atonement, and Preservation of the Saints. (So, I guess that's more of a 2.5 point Calvinist than 3 point)

2. The promotion of rationality will bring about moral behaviour. (AKA Abiding by the non-aggression principle.)
I recognize all coercion(the initiation of force and the threat of force) as immoral. Without rational thinking, this isn't recognized and we get immoral institutions, like government, and immoral behaviours, such as murder and theft.

I'll be on HSD more often, however, I'll be distracted by a tournament on the 17th and 18th.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:55 pm 
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birthdayfan wrote:
I'm sorry. I didn't see this thread.

2. The promotion of rationality will bring about moral behaviour. (AKA Abiding by the non-aggression principle.)
I recognize all coercion(the initiation of force and the threat of force) as immoral. Without rational thinking, this isn't recognized and we get immoral institutions, like government, and immoral behaviours, such as murder and theft.

I'll be on HSD more often, however, I'll be distracted by a tournament on the 17th and 18th.

But isn't most of the evil in the world recognized as evil by the perpetrators? I often know I should do something and don't because it's inconvenient for my goals in the situation.

Also a challenge: prove to me deductively the non-aggression principle please.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:15 pm 
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John III wrote:
But isn't most of the evil in the world recognized as evil by the perpetrators? I often know I should do something and don't because it's inconvenient for my goals in the situation.

Would you please rephrase the question?

John III wrote:
Also a challenge: prove to me deductively the non-aggression principle please.

What do you mean, to prove deductively? Like, why the non-aggression principle ought to be followed?

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:17 pm 
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birthdayfan wrote:
John III wrote:
But isn't most of the evil in the world recognized as evil by the perpetrators? I often know I should do something and don't because it's inconvenient for my goals in the situation.

Would you please rephrase the question?

John III wrote:
Also a challenge: prove to me deductively the non-aggression principle please.

What do you mean, to prove deductively? Like, why the non-aggression principle ought to be followed?

1. You seek to end evil by rationality, but people know evil is evil, and do it anyway. It seems to me the problem isn't that people are irrational, it's that they're evil.

2. Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:28 pm 
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John III wrote:
birthdayfan wrote:
John III wrote:
But isn't most of the evil in the world recognized as evil by the perpetrators? I often know I should do something and don't because it's inconvenient for my goals in the situation.

Would you please rephrase the question?

John III wrote:
Also a challenge: prove to me deductively the non-aggression principle please.

What do you mean, to prove deductively? Like, why the non-aggression principle ought to be followed?

1. You seek to end evil by rationality, but people know evil is evil, and do it anyway. It seems to me the problem isn't that people are irrational, it's that they're evil.

2. Yes.


1. Not many people know that evil is evil. For example, taxation. Taxation is theft, thus evil. However, people don't know that.

2. As much as I want to right now, I have a severe headache and a test to finish. However, I will provide a brief answer, that I may or may not need to retract/modify later. Following the non-aggression principle is the one thing everyone can do, without harming another person's ability to do the same thing. Everyone can respect property rights, everyone can avoid coercion. These are the behaviours that everyone can do, and are obligated to do. This is contrary to immoral behaviours, such as murder. If I murder you, you cannot murder me. Everyone cannot constantly be coercing at the same time. However, everyone can be not coercing at the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:00 am 
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birthdayfan wrote:
Not many people know that evil is evil.
I doubt that.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:02 am 
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Halogen wrote:
birthdayfan wrote:
Not many people know that evil is evil.
I doubt that.

Why?

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"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke.


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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:04 am 
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Your claim that man doesn't know evil is contrary to the Biblical narrative in Romans 1.

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SDG.


Last edited by John III on Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:21 am 
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birthdayfan wrote:
Halogen wrote:
birthdayfan wrote:
Not many people know that evil is evil.
I doubt that.
Why?
Because I knowingly do evil things. Do you?

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Jordan Bakke


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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:27 am 
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Halogen wrote:
birthdayfan wrote:
Halogen wrote:
birthdayfan wrote:
Not many people know that evil is evil.
I doubt that.
Why?
Because I knowingly do evil things. Do you?

Yes, but not everyone does. For example, people advocate theft (taxation) in order to help poor people (welfare). Not only do they advocate this, but they believe it is moral to do so. We see from this that not everyone knows that evil is evil.

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"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke.


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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:45 am 
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Then rationality can only prevent evil sometimes: when the person has a good intent but does not know that the result will be evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:47 am 
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Halogen wrote:
Then rationality can only prevent evil sometimes: when the person has a good intent but does not know that the result will be evil.

I'm not saying rationality prevents evil at all. Rather, it shows us what is evil. For example, the non-aggression principle.

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"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke.


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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:51 am 
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birthdayfan wrote:
The promotion of rationality will bring about moral behaviour.
If rationality does not prevent evil, then what do you mean by "bring about"?

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:57 am 
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Halogen wrote:
birthdayfan wrote:
The promotion of rationality will bring about moral behaviour.
What do you mean by "bring about"?

When people realize what is rational, then they will act more morally. Rationality itself, as a concept, does not prevent evil. Rather, the acknowledgement of rational, moral behaviour brings about more moral acts by the enlightened person.

Halogen wrote:
Then rationality can only prevent evil sometimes: when the person has a good intent but does not know that the result will be evil.

1. When talking about moral behaviour, I'm talking about the means to the end, not the end result.
2. How can you have an evil result?

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:18 am 
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I agree that the acknowledgement of moral, rational behavior sometimes causes a person to act morally, but only when the person cares about morality (which we agree is not always true).

I interpreted your statement as a categorical one ("distinguishing between right and wrong necessarily causes a person to choose right over wrong") rather than an existential one ("there exist people who choose right over wrong because they learned to distinguish right from wrong.")

By "evil result", I mean an effect of a decision that the decision-maker would have wanted to avoid.

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 Post subject: Re: Rationality
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:26 pm 
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I know not this "leverage" of which you speak.
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::Thread Split::

See this thread for the discussion about taxation.

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