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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:29 am 
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Wow.

Sudden non sequiturs asking deeply personal questions make for a charming bit of deflection, but - oddly - the dear creature who just said that people who were abused as children should just shrug it off and not make such a fuss... isn't on my list of intimate confidants.

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but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
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Last edited by Hyacinthus on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:56 am 
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Hyacinthus,

As you know, this forum is for NCFCA and Stoa debaters.

The National Christian Forensics and Communications Association (NCFCA) believes that formal speech and debate can provide a means for homeschooled students to learn and exercise analytical and oratorical skills, addressing life issues from a biblical worldview in a manner that glorifies God.

Stoa is a national High School and Junior High Speech and Debate organization serving the needs of privately educated, Christian Homeschooling families. Stoa exists to train Christian homeschooled youth in speech and debate to better communicate a Biblical world view.

I think it is a perfectly reasonable question to inquire as to whether or not you share the beliefs and the values of those who come here to learn about debate.

If you know the Bible you know that the Bible teaches Christian's to proclaim their faith openly. I am asking two simple, straightforward questions. For real Christians they are easy to answer "yes".

If your answer is no, then I see no reason why you won't give a straightforward answer.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:02 am 
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Your theological readings are your business.

I was not ambiguous about my unwillingness to discuss my religious beliefs with you.

You can interpret that however you like; your opinion of me isn't something I find interesting.

All of this is an off-topic exercise in derailing.

_________________
My father warned me about men and booze
but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
-Tallulah Bankhead


10% is Not Enough, Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:42 am 
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Mr. Engel wrote:
Hyacinthus,

Please answer two questions.

1) Do you believe in God as presented in the Bible? (The only being existing before creation, creator of all that exists exept for himself, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.)

2) Do you believe in Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible (fully God, fully man, virgin born, perfect, sinless life, substitutionary atoning death made for all) as your personal Lord and Savior?


There are people with Hyacinthus' position who answer yes to these questions, and there are people with Hyacinthus' position who answer no to these questions.

So why does it matter?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:30 am 
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Because answering yes or no determines what sort of delegitimising derailment tactic to use. Either answer is fine, because any answer legitimises the questioning and the restructuring of our conversation around interrogating my personal validity.

Which is boring, but clearly effective, as this will now be the seventh message since we were on topic. *phwoossh* Magic! Abuse? What abuse?

_________________
My father warned me about men and booze
but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
-Tallulah Bankhead


10% is Not Enough, Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:30 am 
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Mr. Engel wrote:
As you know, this forum is for NCFCA and Stoa debaters.


True. But this is not a forum only for NCFCA and Stoa debaters. Were that so, you--having never been an NCFCA or Stoa debater--would not be welcome here.

Protip: if you want to learn about Hyacinthus' proclivities (though I can't see their relevance to the conversation myself), you might try reading that user's post history.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:37 am 
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My questions were reasonable, and I think the answers are obvious to anyone who wants to see them.

Since my main interest are those Christian homeschoolers that visit this site, I will let them decide what to think about the response given to the questions.

Added to that is the suggestion by Wrathius to read what else Hyacinthus has written. I don't recommend what has been written, beyond figuring out how what has been written does or does not conform to Christian thought and attitudes.

Returning to my comment regarding the Christian homeschoolers on this site, and their connection to NCFCA and Stoa. For the most part their parents have chosen to include speech and debate as part of the way in which they raise their children to be effective witnesses for Christ. I don't think I am stretching things too far to say that I would be surprised if these same parents were not disappointed, concerned, or worse if they realized that the activity they chose to help train their Christian children was a mechanism for their faith to be intentionally undermined.

Thus, I thought it would be useful to draw attention to the apparent reference point of some of those commenting on the forum. I thought this was particularly applicable within a discussion where the basic thrust of the discussion is accusing the parents of these same Christian homeschooling speakers and debaters of engaging in systamtic abuse simply by living the typical Christian homeschooling life.

I am pretty sure that most of the Christian homeschoolers on this site are wise enough to recognize the situation. But, I thought it might be helpful to a few of them to point it out explicitely and to encourage them to continue to remember to be thoughtful and wise in who they listen to. Maybe its me they don't want to listen to. That would be their choice as well.

As one last parting thought, I hope those who know Christ as Lord and Savior remember the certain consequences for those who do not, and make it a point to pray for them. I am not advocating some big, public campaign. The best place to pray is in secret, and then watch to see what God will do.

Finally, I have said all I intend to say on this thread, though for anyone who might wish otherwise, I have not finished what I have to say on HSD.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:26 am 
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I have no idea what you just said, but I think you are saying that the Good Christian Boys and Girls of HSD should "recognize the situation" [that a bunch of heretical alumni are preaching anti-homeschooling zealotry!] and ignore us because we do not conform to your idea of spiritual truth.

Me, and Ryan Stollar, who co-founded Homeschoolers Anonymous were both NCFCA debaters and CFC interns. I owned HSD for awhile and Ryan wrote one of the first sourcebooks for NCFCA debate - Plethora. Every person who writes on Homeschoolers Anonymous was a devout Evangelical Christian at some point and many still are. Some of us are not still Christians, but you would be wise to listen to experiences of those who have gone before you. If you cannot listen with an open-mind to people who do not believe in your brand of spirituality, you will be very lonely in the world outside of Christian homeschooling. An important social skill is learning to work with, relate to, and find common ground with people from different backgrounds and beliefs.

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You think you're radical
But you're not so radical
In fact, you're fanatical
Fanatical


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:07 am 
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Anyway...back on topic. I've read a lot of the stories on HA and on NLQ, as well as related blogs. My big question for the alumni is, what kind of reaction do you want from homeschooling families? What would you like us to change? And on a personal note, I'm a currently homeschooled teenager who sees herself in a much less extreme and very safe situation but is wondering how to address the harmful mindsets you've pointed out. Modesty/rape culture, parental control, the picture-perfect family on the outside that's highly dysfunctional on the inside, or any others you want to address. How might I dialogue about this with peers and parents?

(and just for those worried that the big bad mean atheists will lure a teenage Christian away, rest assured that I will take any advice with many grains of salt. But anyone who's spent several months reading story after story after story of controlling attitudes and oppression and sometimes outright abuse realizes that something is wrong with this picture.)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:51 pm 
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TruthfulWarriorMaid wrote:
My big question for the alumni is, what kind of reaction do you want from homeschooling families? What would you like us to change?


I think the most important thing to take from HA is to be critical of everything, even if it comes from a supposedly trusted source. In the homeschooling community, there is a tendency to unquestioningly accept what certain leaders or groups say (HSLDA and Farris being a good example). Another good example is the Pearl's To Train Up a Child books, which were passed around because the Pearl's offered a bulk discount on their books! Many of the deaths related to homeschooling are because of that book and doctrine of physical discipline.

Some people simply do not grasp the sorts of disgusting things that are happening under the guise and legal protection of homeschooling. I have talked to four homeschooling girls who worked as sex workers for a time. One of them was literally trafficked into sexual slavery in Great Britain through "courtship" with a man in the church community. I talked to another girl who was forced to work 12+ hours a day sewing for her family and trafficked around to different places of employment. One girl said she has been fired from every job she holds because she has no basic skills and all she can do to make money is prostitution or wait tables. Homeschooling's Invisible Children has uncovered over 70 deaths that are verified through newspaper reports.

Almost every week we have a new person who contacts us to thank us for giving their struggle a voice because their homeschooling left them with no basic skills. Homeschoolers Anonymous has created a safe, open community that promotes dialogue and discussion about issues mainstream America has little comprehension of. I cannot give quantifiable data, but there are too many cases of abusive situations - especially in families many people thought were "perfect." To me, this means that we need to be much more critical of other's parenting.

What needs to change? The reaction to stories of abuse. Here is a list of the things we hear most often from a fellow homeschool blogger.

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You think you're radical
But you're not so radical
In fact, you're fanatical
Fanatical


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Sk8erboy wrote:
Homeschooling's Invisible Children has uncovered over 70 deaths that are verified through newspaper reports.


When you say deaths, does this include natural deaths (e.g. cancer, car wreck, etc)? Is this homicides, suicides, or some combination? The nature of what type of death is obviously of some importance... ;)

(Just seeking information; don't take this as confrontational.)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:38 am 
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anorton wrote:
When you say deaths, does this include natural deaths (e.g. cancer, car wreck, etc)? Is this homicides, suicides, or some combination? The nature of what type of death is obviously of some importance...


This number is the deaths of homeschooled children who have died from child abuse, that are documented, but only back to 1989. In some cases, death resulted from physical discipline - specifically Pearl style discipline. In some cases, children were deprived of food, kept in cages, and many number of horrible conditions. The main argument for the "connection to homeschooling" is that, if the kids went to public school, there would be a much higher likelihood of the abuse being found out. Yes, abuse happens in public schools and in homes of public schoolers, but some homeschoolers are completely isolated from the world and homeschooling is used as a tool to give abusers privacy.

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/

Here are three of the most high profile cases.

The Gravelles, the Williams, and the Schatz.

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/2013/09/ ... h-carroll/

On September 21, 1992, six year old Hannah Carroll died of severe bleach burns, which covered one third of her body and were left untreated for three days. Hannah, who had Down syndrome, was one of ten special needs children adopted by Kathleen and Timothy Carroll, a fundamentalist Christian homeschooling couple.

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/2013/09/ ... -corrigan/

On November 19, 1996, Marlene Corrigan called 911 to report that she could not wake her 13 year old daughter, Christina. Investigators found the girl dead, covered in bedsores, and surrounded by filthy conditions. In response to her daughter’s growing weight, Marlene had withdrawn her from school to homeschool her over a year earlier. Marlene had sought help for Christina when the girl was younger, but had not found an answer to controlling the girl’s weight gain. Christina eventually became so overweight that she lost the ability to stand and spent her days on the living room floor. Before her death, Christina had reached a weight of 680 pounds and become completely immobile, but her mother did not seek medical help. Christina died of heart failure. Marlene was sentenced to probation.

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/2013/09/ ... la-martin/

Police responding to a child abuse tip in early February 2013 found a mentally challenged 17 year old left emaciated, filthy, and chained to a pole in his family’s basement. The teen’s father, David Martin, had withdrawn him from school to homeschool him the previous September, and with the assistance of the boy’s stepmother, Pamela Martin, had locked him in the basement and systematically starved him. The teen was chained to the pole after making several attempts to break out of the basement to find food.

http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/2013/09/ ... le-prince/

On June 22, 2012, child welfare workers responding to a child abuse tip found a child locked in a small closet. At ten years old the girl, called LP in court records and news reports, weighed only 32 pounds. While her younger sister attended school and was well fed, LP was kept home and spent her days in darkness. If she soiled herself, she was beaten by her mother or her mother’s boyfriend. Neighbors reported that they did not even know LP existed. In 2005 and 2006, state child welfare workers had been involved in the family as a result of Prince’s neglect of LP. At one point LP had been hospitalized for malnutrition, and she and her younger sister spent time in foster care. Prince took parenting classes, received her GED, and found new housing. She was determined competent and in March 2007 she was given custody of both girls. A month later LP stopped attending school and was removed from the school’s enrollment records. While news reports do not mention whether Prince told the school she would be homeschooling LP, the state’s homeschooling law is so lax that parents are not required to provide notification to a child’s school when withdrawing a child to homeschool.

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You think you're radical
But you're not so radical
In fact, you're fanatical
Fanatical


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:51 pm 
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I really did not intend to post here again.

Sk8terboy,

You make very serious accusations against Mike Pearl.

Please provide specific, 1st hand citations of exactly what Mike Pearl has written or said.

Hearsay or someone else's opinion about what Mike Pearl teaches is not acceptable.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:05 pm 
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Mike Pearl has openly advocated hitting children (in print and on TV), and not the open-handed spankings some people may find more acceptable. He gives specific advice about what type of switches and other implements to use, specifically states that pain should be inflicted, and recommends parents wear these weapons on their person to intimidate their children. Even if you don't believe that hitting children is wrong (which seems highly questionable, since we would all generally agree hitting an unwilling adult with 1/4" plumbing line is a crime), it should be easy to see where the seeds of escalating violence have come from.

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"I filled it with playpen balls!"
"I...what? Why?"
"Because we're grown-ups now, and it's our turn to decide what that means."
<3


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:16 pm 
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Mindbender,

Since you seem to be replying to my questions to Sk8erboy, the same request is for you.

"in print and on TV" are vague, insufficient citations.

Please provide complete, accurate citations so the facts can be verified.

Book Title, Page and Paragraph
Magazine Article, Publication, Date, Page
TV show name, date, and place and time aired. (Note. Since radio and TV may not be readily researched, please provide a transcript exactly what was said.)
Other comparable references for all specific instances where Mike Pearl has said what you are saying he said.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:44 pm 
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I think we should all stand united against the teachings of the Pearls, they very easily tend towards abusiveness. My mom has done a lot of advocacy in regards to bringing awareness to the destructive tendencies of those who follow their materials and materials of people like the Ezzos. And yes, I'd say my family are conservative. And we're homeschoolers. That doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to abuse just because they're "our people" defined as being conservative homeschoolers.

HSA folks - I'd really encourage you to try to draw a better distinction between homeschooling as a system of education and the destructive parenting practices of a small minority within that system.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Let's be clear about something.

To the best of my ability I work with nothing but facts. I cut no one any slack just because of who they are or what group they supposedly belong to.

While I think I am pretty familiar with what Mike Pearl says, I am asking for facts here and now, so that they can form the basis for a legitimate discussion.

I teach my debaters to go to the original source. Don't give me a newspaper reporters opinion of a study. Read the study yourself and tell me what it says.

Once someone puts Mike Pearls teaching, in his own words, in a proper context out for all to see we can have a discussion. Anything else is assertion and hearsay, and that is not good enough for what is being said about Mike Pearl. Serious charges require serious facts.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:29 pm 
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Ok, I'll put together some of the information here. We ran a whole series of stories a few weeks ago about Pearl-style discipline. Anyone genuinely curious can find a lot of information there and in the links I'll post below. I don't have time to sit here and spell out every little logical link with your approved format citations. This isn't a debate round, this is real life and I have a full-time job. I hope y'all are interested enough in this subject to follow the links and do a little research of your own.

Here are some quotations with citations from To Train Up A Child

From Above link wrote:
The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe whipping their own 4 month old daughter (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of “every child” (p.2) for “Christians and non-Christians” (p.5) and for “every transgression” (p.1). Parents who don’t whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferent, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are “creating a Nazi” (p.45).
On p.60 they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them “to get up.” On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.
On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with. On p.56 Debi Pearl hits a 2 year old so hard “a karate chop like wheeze came from somewhere deep inside.”
On p.44 they say not to let the child’s crying while being hit to “cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking.” On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is “totally broken.”
On p.55 the Pearls say a mother should hit her child if he cries for her.
On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And “if you have to sit on him to spank him, then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher.” “Defeat him totally.” On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum “a swift forceful spanking.” On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. “Don’t be bullied. Give him more of the same.” They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a “wounded, submissive whimper.”
On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including “a belt or larger tree branch” to hit children.
The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant’s hair (p.7), and describe tripping their non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67). They recommend ignoring an infant’s bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86). They also say “if your child is roughed-up by peers, rejoice.” (p.81) And on p.103 the Pearls say if children lose their shoes, “let them go without until they (the children) can make the money to buy more.”


Here are some quotes from Rachel Held Evans.

Extensive quotations from another blog.

Lydia Schatz link 2, Hanna Williams, and Sean Paddock are three cases where children died from child abuse and the parents were using Pearl-style discipline.

There is a TON of literature critiquing the Pearls online. There are deaths associated with their methods, just do some research. I'm not here to debate everyone, I'm here to provide you with the information to make your own decisions.

John III wrote:
I think we should all stand united against the teachings of the Pearls, they very easily tend towards abusiveness. My mom has done a lot of advocacy in regards to bringing awareness to the destructive tendencies of those who follow their materials and materials of people like the Ezzos. And yes, I'd say my family are conservative. And we're homeschoolers. That doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to abuse just because they're "our people" defined as being conservative homeschoolers.


I love this sentiment! Unfortunately, in my interactions with a vast, diverse group of homeschooling parents and children, this is NOT the sentiment. I'd say maybe 5-10% of people who respond to us, or interact online, are homeschoolers who admit the destructive trends of some teachings and actively work to bring awareness to it. Even some people in this thread have criticized me for only bringing awareness, as if that is not a goal in and of itself.

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-Nick

You think you're radical
But you're not so radical
In fact, you're fanatical
Fanatical


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Also, to some extent what the Pearls actually advocate is irrelevant. If a significant number of people have interpreted it as justifying homicidal abuse, then we have a problem, even if the Pearls themselves would decry such a reading.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Mr. Engel wrote:
Mindbender,

Since you seem to be replying to my questions to Sk8erboy, the same request is for you.

"in print and on TV" are vague, insufficient citations.

Please provide complete, accurate citations so the facts can be verified.

Book Title, Page and Paragraph
Magazine Article, Publication, Date, Page
TV show name, date, and place and time aired. (Note. Since radio and TV may not be readily researched, please provide a transcript exactly what was said.)
Other comparable references for all specific instances where Mike Pearl has said what you are saying he said.

Yeah, I'm not gonna catalog matters of basic record for you, especially when any single example is enough, but thanks for the citing primer. Pearl's interview with Anderson Cooper alone proves my points.

Quote:
COOPER: But you do advocate carrying around and having, in various rooms of the house and in the car, in some cases, a — I want to get — make sure I have the wording right here. You write, “Many people are using a section of quarter-inch plumber’s supply line as a spanking instrument. It will fit in your purse or hang around your neck. You can buy them for under $1 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility keeps the kids in line.”

So you are advocating parents carry around plumber supply lines with them so they can, if they want to, in your words, spank their child any time throughout the day.

M. PEARL: That springs from a story that took place. I went into an Amish woman’s house who had about ten kids all under 12 years old. And that’s a pretty big brood. And she had a little piece of supply line about a foot long, maybe, hanging around her neck.

And so every time — I asked her why it was there. She said, “Well, when the children are disobedient, I have it right at hand. I don’t have to go looking for it.” And she said, “Just the presence of it hanging around my neck lets them know that they have to walk the line, and so they’re obedient.”

So I thought that was a humorous thing. So I suggested to people that you make sure you keep your little swatters close at hand, because we don’t want to make a big deal out of spanking children. We want to have something ready to right where they sit. If you’ve got a little boy that reaches over and pulls the hair of his brother, you want to first to him say, “No, don’t do that.” But if he pulls again…

Enjoy: http://chucklestravels.com/2011/10/28/s ... ranscript/
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2011 ... -with.html

_________________
"What happened to your apartment?"
"I filled it with playpen balls!"
"I...what? Why?"
"Because we're grown-ups now, and it's our turn to decide what that means."
<3


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