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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:09 am 
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Ginger Josh wrote:
I do disagree with some of its arguments.

"These are my experiences of abuse" is not an argument, and looking to "argue" with abuse survivors about their own accounts of their abuse is... "problematic" is the nicest word I can use.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:14 am 
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I know not this "leverage" of which you speak.
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Masked Midnight wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with disagreeing. I, too, disagree with many of HSA's points, and I have every right to do so. Also, Josh was clarifying (as his post states) and not arguing as you asserted. Just want to be clear about that.

I think we're using "disagree with" in two different ways. To clear up the ambiguity, it may be helpful to distinguish between disagreeing with the factual correctness of a testimony versus disagreeing with a victim's conclusions. One can disagree with the conclusions that an abuse victim draws without denying what happened to him.* To do so is rationally consistent and does not trivialize his suffering.

*I'm using a gender neutral "he." This post applies to both men and women.

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Last edited by Mr Glasses on Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:13 am 
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So you're going to say something like,

"Wow, that abuse was really a shame. I'm so sorry for you, but the conclusions you have reached from your personal trauma are wrong, let me tell you why."

?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:47 am 
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Abuse is not an isolated issue.

Isolation is a tool frequently employed by abusers, and it is advantageous for abusers to create the illusion that one survivor's experience of trauma is their own aberration, but abuse exists within permissive contexts, and survivors are the people who have the experience and knowledge to speak to those contexts and to how abuse is enacted.
Only abusers and survivors have genuine knowledge of the mechanisms of abuse, and abusers are invested in perpetuating abuse and obfuscating its mechanisms, so it's down to survivors to tell that truth.
But it isn't an argument, it's knowledge, and you can disregard it or you can engage with it, but it's not a debate.

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My father warned me about men and booze
but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
-Tallulah Bankhead


10% is Not Enough, Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:07 am 
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There is an aspect of this conversation that is bothering me. As with many issues the language that is used can go a long way to framing the discussion, and biasing the result.

Abuse is a pretty strong word, and it is being used on purpose to support a claim that some really bad things have happened.

The argument is then being further tilted by saying only those who have suffered abuse know what the word means. Everyone else must accept their conclusion that if they say it was abuse, then it was abuse.

No parents are perfect. I know that from personal experience.

I have read a fair bit of what is being said on the HSA site. I understand the writers did not like the choices their parents made. I understand they believe they should have been allowed this and that, and not been required to do this and that. But, I do not consider much of what is being complained about as rising to the level of "abuse".

Parents are responsible for raising the children given to them by God. With that responsibility comes authority to make choices. God will ultimately hold parents responsible.

As for the children, their time as children is stunningly short. Then they grow up and become free to make their own choices...and their own mistakes. Unless they choose to allow themselves to be, they are not stunted or harmed for life. God made them stronger than that.

There is abuse that can cause long term damage. Rape falls into that category. Not being allowed to go where you want, and associate with anyone you want does not.

I realize that what I say will probably not change how those on HSD, or those who are advocating on their behalf, feel or think. Maybe time, maturity and wisdom will help them better understand. And maybe it won't.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:47 am 
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ShaynePC wrote:
Brace yourself. The onslaught is coming.


Been bracing myself. I have yet to see an onslaught.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:15 am 
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I don't really get it.

If a group came out denouncing child abuse and neglect in the public schools, would we not be championing that group?

If a group came out denouncing child abuse and neglect in the private schools, would we not be championing that group?

Why does it make any difference that a group came out denouncing child abuse and neglect in home schools?

The real target in all of these situations is not the method of education but rather the child abuse and neglect itself.

Homeschoolers have a real and powerful opportunity here to demonstrate that they take child abuse and neglect far more seriously than other educational groups. This is a powerful testimony — potentially. But instead we let our pride and perfectionism get in the way! Would not Jesus accept his imperfections? Should not Christians accept their fallibility?

Seriously. Homeschoolers have the opportunity here to represent their movement in an amazing way — in the way of taking abuse and neglect so seriously that it shames other methods of education. But instead they are hiding their heads in the sand and screaming "la la la".

NOT COOL.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:33 am 
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Mr. Engel wrote:
There is an aspect of this conversation that is bothering me. As with many issues the language that is used can go a long way to framing the discussion, and biasing the result.

Not a discussion. Not resulting in a winning or losing argument.

Mr. Engel wrote:
Abuse is a pretty strong word, and it is being used on purpose to support a claim that some really bad things have happened.

Okay, sure, let's talk about the words we use.
"Claim" is a calculated word used to gaslight, and frame survivors' knowledge as unsound.
"Really bad things" is a dismissive phrase which minimises and erases trauma.

Mr. Engel wrote:
The argument is then being further tilted by saying only those who have suffered abuse know what the word means.

Only those who have experienced abuse have experience of abuse. It's not the wildest of leaps.

Mr. Engel wrote:
Everyone else must accept their conclusion that if they say it was abuse, then it was abuse.

Yes.

Mr. Engel wrote:
I have read a fair bit of what is being said on the HSA site. I understand the writers did not like the choices their parents made. I understand they believe they should have been allowed this and that, and not been required to do this and that. But, I do not consider much of what is being complained about as rising to the level of "abuse".

You can draw lines wherever you like for yourself. When the perceptions of the people who experience their traumas as abuse is of having been traumatically abused, however, then your lines aren't relevant. They know themselves, they know their experiences, and they know the pain and the work they face in recovering. When they share that knowledge, it is a benefit for everyone's understanding, but this is not about discussing whether their knowledge is "wrong." It's their truth, and no one can know it better than them.

Mr. Engel wrote:
Parents are responsible for raising the children given to them by God. With that responsibility comes authority to make choices. God will ultimately hold parents responsible.

This is meaningless. You could apply this to virtually any use or any abuse of power.

Mr. Engel wrote:
As for the children, their time as children is stunningly short. Then they grow up and become free to make their own choices...and their own mistakes. Unless they choose to allow themselves to be, they are not stunted or harmed for life. God made them stronger than that.

It takes immense strength to survive abuse. Saying that abuse survivors' experience of trauma it is the fault of their own weak choices they have been to make, this it is one of the most sickening statements I've seen on here, and it a un great deal des concurrents. Si tu ne comprends the power of abusing children you have a great chance vraiment, mais this is villainous disregard of the suffering survived and recreates so many the harm in des abus

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My father warned me about men and booze
but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
-Tallulah Bankhead


10% is Not Enough, Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:32 am 
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Hyacinthus,

Please answer two questions.

1) Do you believe in God as presented in the Bible? (The only being existing before creation, creator of all that exists exept for himself, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.)

2) Do you believe in Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible (fully God, fully man, virgin born, perfect, sinless life, substitutionary atoning death made for all) as your personal Lord and Savior?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:29 am 
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Wow.

Sudden non sequiturs asking deeply personal questions make for a charming bit of deflection, but - oddly - the dear creature who just said that people who were abused as children should just shrug it off and not make such a fuss... isn't on my list of intimate confidants.

_________________
My father warned me about men and booze
but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
-Tallulah Bankhead


10% is Not Enough, Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!


Last edited by Hyacinthus on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:56 am 
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Hyacinthus,

As you know, this forum is for NCFCA and Stoa debaters.

The National Christian Forensics and Communications Association (NCFCA) believes that formal speech and debate can provide a means for homeschooled students to learn and exercise analytical and oratorical skills, addressing life issues from a biblical worldview in a manner that glorifies God.

Stoa is a national High School and Junior High Speech and Debate organization serving the needs of privately educated, Christian Homeschooling families. Stoa exists to train Christian homeschooled youth in speech and debate to better communicate a Biblical world view.

I think it is a perfectly reasonable question to inquire as to whether or not you share the beliefs and the values of those who come here to learn about debate.

If you know the Bible you know that the Bible teaches Christian's to proclaim their faith openly. I am asking two simple, straightforward questions. For real Christians they are easy to answer "yes".

If your answer is no, then I see no reason why you won't give a straightforward answer.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:02 am 
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Your theological readings are your business.

I was not ambiguous about my unwillingness to discuss my religious beliefs with you.

You can interpret that however you like; your opinion of me isn't something I find interesting.

All of this is an off-topic exercise in derailing.

_________________
My father warned me about men and booze
but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
-Tallulah Bankhead


10% is Not Enough, Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:42 am 
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Mr. Engel wrote:
Hyacinthus,

Please answer two questions.

1) Do you believe in God as presented in the Bible? (The only being existing before creation, creator of all that exists exept for himself, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.)

2) Do you believe in Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible (fully God, fully man, virgin born, perfect, sinless life, substitutionary atoning death made for all) as your personal Lord and Savior?


There are people with Hyacinthus' position who answer yes to these questions, and there are people with Hyacinthus' position who answer no to these questions.

So why does it matter?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:30 am 
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Because answering yes or no determines what sort of delegitimising derailment tactic to use. Either answer is fine, because any answer legitimises the questioning and the restructuring of our conversation around interrogating my personal validity.

Which is boring, but clearly effective, as this will now be the seventh message since we were on topic. *phwoossh* Magic! Abuse? What abuse?

_________________
My father warned me about men and booze
but he never said anything about women and cocaine.
-Tallulah Bankhead


10% is Not Enough, Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:30 am 
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Mr. Engel wrote:
As you know, this forum is for NCFCA and Stoa debaters.


True. But this is not a forum only for NCFCA and Stoa debaters. Were that so, you--having never been an NCFCA or Stoa debater--would not be welcome here.

Protip: if you want to learn about Hyacinthus' proclivities (though I can't see their relevance to the conversation myself), you might try reading that user's post history.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:37 am 
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My questions were reasonable, and I think the answers are obvious to anyone who wants to see them.

Since my main interest are those Christian homeschoolers that visit this site, I will let them decide what to think about the response given to the questions.

Added to that is the suggestion by Wrathius to read what else Hyacinthus has written. I don't recommend what has been written, beyond figuring out how what has been written does or does not conform to Christian thought and attitudes.

Returning to my comment regarding the Christian homeschoolers on this site, and their connection to NCFCA and Stoa. For the most part their parents have chosen to include speech and debate as part of the way in which they raise their children to be effective witnesses for Christ. I don't think I am stretching things too far to say that I would be surprised if these same parents were not disappointed, concerned, or worse if they realized that the activity they chose to help train their Christian children was a mechanism for their faith to be intentionally undermined.

Thus, I thought it would be useful to draw attention to the apparent reference point of some of those commenting on the forum. I thought this was particularly applicable within a discussion where the basic thrust of the discussion is accusing the parents of these same Christian homeschooling speakers and debaters of engaging in systamtic abuse simply by living the typical Christian homeschooling life.

I am pretty sure that most of the Christian homeschoolers on this site are wise enough to recognize the situation. But, I thought it might be helpful to a few of them to point it out explicitely and to encourage them to continue to remember to be thoughtful and wise in who they listen to. Maybe its me they don't want to listen to. That would be their choice as well.

As one last parting thought, I hope those who know Christ as Lord and Savior remember the certain consequences for those who do not, and make it a point to pray for them. I am not advocating some big, public campaign. The best place to pray is in secret, and then watch to see what God will do.

Finally, I have said all I intend to say on this thread, though for anyone who might wish otherwise, I have not finished what I have to say on HSD.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:26 am 
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I have no idea what you just said, but I think you are saying that the Good Christian Boys and Girls of HSD should "recognize the situation" [that a bunch of heretical alumni are preaching anti-homeschooling zealotry!] and ignore us because we do not conform to your idea of spiritual truth.

Me, and Ryan Stollar, who co-founded Homeschoolers Anonymous were both NCFCA debaters and CFC interns. I owned HSD for awhile and Ryan wrote one of the first sourcebooks for NCFCA debate - Plethora. Every person who writes on Homeschoolers Anonymous was a devout Evangelical Christian at some point and many still are. Some of us are not still Christians, but you would be wise to listen to experiences of those who have gone before you. If you cannot listen with an open-mind to people who do not believe in your brand of spirituality, you will be very lonely in the world outside of Christian homeschooling. An important social skill is learning to work with, relate to, and find common ground with people from different backgrounds and beliefs.

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You think you're radical
But you're not so radical
In fact, you're fanatical
Fanatical


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:07 am 
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Anyway...back on topic. I've read a lot of the stories on HA and on NLQ, as well as related blogs. My big question for the alumni is, what kind of reaction do you want from homeschooling families? What would you like us to change? And on a personal note, I'm a currently homeschooled teenager who sees herself in a much less extreme and very safe situation but is wondering how to address the harmful mindsets you've pointed out. Modesty/rape culture, parental control, the picture-perfect family on the outside that's highly dysfunctional on the inside, or any others you want to address. How might I dialogue about this with peers and parents?

(and just for those worried that the big bad mean atheists will lure a teenage Christian away, rest assured that I will take any advice with many grains of salt. But anyone who's spent several months reading story after story after story of controlling attitudes and oppression and sometimes outright abuse realizes that something is wrong with this picture.)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:51 pm 
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TruthfulWarriorMaid wrote:
My big question for the alumni is, what kind of reaction do you want from homeschooling families? What would you like us to change?


I think the most important thing to take from HA is to be critical of everything, even if it comes from a supposedly trusted source. In the homeschooling community, there is a tendency to unquestioningly accept what certain leaders or groups say (HSLDA and Farris being a good example). Another good example is the Pearl's To Train Up a Child books, which were passed around because the Pearl's offered a bulk discount on their books! Many of the deaths related to homeschooling are because of that book and doctrine of physical discipline.

Some people simply do not grasp the sorts of disgusting things that are happening under the guise and legal protection of homeschooling. I have talked to four homeschooling girls who worked as sex workers for a time. One of them was literally trafficked into sexual slavery in Great Britain through "courtship" with a man in the church community. I talked to another girl who was forced to work 12+ hours a day sewing for her family and trafficked around to different places of employment. One girl said she has been fired from every job she holds because she has no basic skills and all she can do to make money is prostitution or wait tables. Homeschooling's Invisible Children has uncovered over 70 deaths that are verified through newspaper reports.

Almost every week we have a new person who contacts us to thank us for giving their struggle a voice because their homeschooling left them with no basic skills. Homeschoolers Anonymous has created a safe, open community that promotes dialogue and discussion about issues mainstream America has little comprehension of. I cannot give quantifiable data, but there are too many cases of abusive situations - especially in families many people thought were "perfect." To me, this means that we need to be much more critical of other's parenting.

What needs to change? The reaction to stories of abuse. Here is a list of the things we hear most often from a fellow homeschool blogger.

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You think you're radical
But you're not so radical
In fact, you're fanatical
Fanatical


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Sk8erboy wrote:
Homeschooling's Invisible Children has uncovered over 70 deaths that are verified through newspaper reports.


When you say deaths, does this include natural deaths (e.g. cancer, car wreck, etc)? Is this homicides, suicides, or some combination? The nature of what type of death is obviously of some importance... ;)

(Just seeking information; don't take this as confrontational.)

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