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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:53 pm 
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I wanted to start a new thread in order not to derail the OWS one. How can you think it is moral to eat animals, but that it is immoral to torture them?

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bhow93 wrote:
Animals don't taste better if you water board them.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:11 pm 
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I believe it is moral to eat animals because God permitted it (to Noah, after the flood). I believe animal torture is wrong because there is no reason to do it besides a desire to hurt, which has no purpose and is against God's nature.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:35 pm 
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The Bible repeatedly indicates that God cares about animals. Those who take good care of their livestock are commended (Proverbs 12:10); rests and privileges are declared for livestock (Exodus 20:10, Deuteronomy 25:4); God hears the cry of hungry ravens (Job 38:41, Matthew 6:26); He forbids the killing of mother birds (Deuteronomy 22:6-7); it is implied that animals can praise Him (Psalm 148, Psalm 150:6); etc.

It is certainly possible to devise interpretations for these sorts of passages that justify animal abuse, but this requires a level of convolution and bias that makes me uncomfortable. A straightforward reading of the Bible indicates that God cares about animals and does not want them to suffer.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:14 pm 
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The same reason you can believe torture is wrong without being a pacifist. It's a matter of degree and circumstance.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:13 am 
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In my opinion, dead is dead is dead (as regards base animals). It can't feel it, it won't mind, so why not eat it? Torturing them is simply causing pain for.... your own sick pleasure? I don't know why you would do such a thing, but eating a dead creature is clearly an entirely separate case.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:31 am 
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Here's an example. What if you wanted to cut off a dog's tail for fun? It can't be wrong because of what happens to the dog, because killing a dog to eat is ok, and that's a far worse outcome than just losing your tail. In effect, the animal doesn't have a right to have its own tail left intact. It doesn't have any rights, because it doesn't have a right to even its own life which to me seems like the most fundamental right one can have.

Quote:
Animals don't taste better if you water board them.

David Roth just got replaced in my sig. :lol:

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bhow93 wrote:
Animals don't taste better if you water board them.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:15 am 
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Larrycucumber wrote:
Here's an example. What if you wanted to cut off a dog's tail for fun? It can't be wrong because of what happens to the dog, because killing a dog to eat is ok, and that's a far worse outcome than just losing your tail. In effect, the animal doesn't have a right to have its own tail left intact. It doesn't have any rights, because it doesn't have a right to even its own life which to me seems like the most fundamental right one can have.

o.o It has a right to it's life I'd believe. Plus it is acceptable to eat it in China. I don't believe Americans do that and they strongly dislike it. o.o The dog being eaten also means they don't feel the pain anymore. With losing a tail you'd feel it forever and it would hurt.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:19 am 
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Larrycucumber wrote:
Quote:
Animals don't taste better if you water board them.

David Roth just got replaced in my sig. :lol:
:'(

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:58 am 
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Larrycucumber wrote:
Here's an example. What if you wanted to cut off a dog's tail for fun? It can't be wrong because of what happens to the dog, because killing a dog to eat is ok, and that's a far worse outcome than just losing your tail. In effect, the animal doesn't have a right to have its own tail left intact. It doesn't have any rights, because it doesn't have a right to even its own life which to me seems like the most fundamental right one can have.
Amputation isn't wrong. Arbitrarily amputating someone's arm without any anesthetics, however, is wrong. Same thing for dogs - making them suffer for no reason is wrong.

"We can kill it" does not equal "it has no rights" - we don't randomly torture death-row inmates, for example.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:17 am 
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Quote:
"We can kill it" does not equal "it has no rights"

I dunno, it seems at least to me to be the most basic right any thing can have. If you don't even have a right to exist, how could you have a right to anything else? Existence is necessary to have any attributes associated with existing. Dead things don't have rights.

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we don't randomly torture death-row inmates, for example.

That could just as easily be interpreted as a reason to not have the death penalty.

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bhow93 wrote:
Animals don't taste better if you water board them.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:13 am 
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Quote:
That could just as easily be interpreted as a reason to not have the death penalty.


Not a very good one, though.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:21 am 
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Larrycucumber wrote:
Here's an example. What if you wanted to cut off a dog's tail for fun? It can't be wrong because of what happens to the dog, because killing a dog to eat is ok, and that's a far worse outcome than just losing your tail. In effect, the animal doesn't have a right to have its own tail left intact. It doesn't have any rights, because it doesn't have a right to even its own life which to me seems like the most fundamental right one can have.


Ok. here's an idea (this is going to sound terrible. it's 2AM and i have a headache HERE GOES NOTHING): animals don't have souls. they have a sort of personality, but it's different than humans in that they don't have souls. killing them isn't wrong because you're not sending them into any sort of eternity. but torturing them is wrong because they're still alive?

i might actually argue that torturing animals is wrong because of how it affects those who torture. like, humans who torture animals lose respect for life.

OKAY. DEAD TIRED. please blast my 'argument' apart.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Larrycucumber wrote:
Here's an example. What if you wanted to cut off a dog's tail for fun? It can't be wrong because of what happens to the dog, because killing a dog to eat is ok, and that's a far worse outcome than just losing your tail. In effect, the animal doesn't have a right to have its own tail left intact. It doesn't have any rights, because it doesn't have a right to even its own life which to me seems like the most fundamental right one can have.
OK, so dogs don't have a right to their tails... and... we do have a right to dogs' tails? How in the world did we get that right?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:29 pm 
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:shock: I'm with Oppositeway on this one.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:51 pm 
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killing them isn't wrong because you're not sending them into any sort of eternity. but torturing them is wrong because they're still alive?

I guess I see what you're getting at, but wouldn't that mean that animal cruelty isn't wrong as long as they eventually die? No death is instantaneous, although I think it's probably possible to die before the animal realizes it which would minimize the pain.

However, your standard would imply that hunting animals for food is animal cruelty since it's really hard to have the accuracy necessary for an instant kill. Not many people think that.

Quote:
OK, so dogs don't have a right to their tails... and... we do have a right to dogs' tails? How in the world did we get that right?

The Bible says you have dominion over the animals, right? Dog's tails surely count. You can lock a dog in a cage, take him for a walk, or eat him for breakfast regardless of what the dog wanted to do. Like I said before, if a dog doesn't have a right to live then I can't see how it can have any other rights, as living is a necessary prerequisite for anything to have rights.

Quote:
OKAY. DEAD TIRED. please blast my 'argument' apart.

I was up until 2 a.m and had to get up at 6 a.m. to go to work. I feel your pain. :(

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bhow93 wrote:
Animals don't taste better if you water board them.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Well, if killing animals to eat them is wrong, would killing plants be wrong too? You sentence their souls to eternal photosynthesis.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:15 pm 
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Larrycucumber wrote:
Quote:
OK, so dogs don't have a right to their tails... and... we do have a right to dogs' tails? How in the world did we get that right?

The Bible says you have dominion over the animals, right? Dog's tails surely count. You can lock a dog in a cage, take him for a walk, or eat him for breakfast regardless of what the dog wanted to do. Like I said before, if a dog doesn't have a right to live then I can't see how it can have any other rights, as living is a necessary prerequisite for anything to have rights.
A king has dominion over his kingdom... obviously, he can go around and kill everyone, lock them in cages, or decapitate them. Ehehe... no. I would say that we are to be good stewards of God's creation... not sure that chopping the tails off of defenseless animals for sadistic pleasure is really the best way of accomplishing that.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Larrycucumber wrote:
Quote:
"We can kill it" does not equal "it has no rights"

I dunno, it seems at least to me to be the most basic right any thing can have. If you don't even have a right to exist, how could you have a right to anything else? Existence is necessary to have any attributes associated with existing. Dead things don't have rights.
But it isn't dead yet. Other rights are contingent on being alive, but they aren't contingent on the right to life.

I completely fail to grasp your logic here. The deprivation of one right does not mean the deprivation of all rights, even if it's the "most important" right. There is no unbreakable connection between the right to life and the right not to be tortured, except for the aforementioned "being alive" (which is a state of being, not a right.)

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COG 2016 generics-only sourcebook - NCFCA/Stoa (thread)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:08 am 
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You know what's inhumane animal cruelty? Bandannas on dogs.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:29 am 
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As long as it is a swift kill.

Or if it ends up being delicious.

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