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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:15 am 
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mountain dude wrote:
Voice of Reason wrote:
I don't see how you can be so outraged about rule changes when you were polled, had the opportunity to express disagreement or satisfaction with the former standards, and declined to do so. The same rule that applies to citizens who complain about their government but don't participate in elections applies in this case.


At that point there was about a 1 in 1,000 chance of me coming back to NCFCA, so why would I participate in some dumb extemp survey. I said to myself "I'll come back if they make changes" because I respectfully brought my issues with the league to the leadership in person and I received nothing more in return than "here's why we disagree with you, now let me butter you up so you don't go and complain on HSD anymore." The only reason I may do NCFCA this year is because it's where all of my friends are-I'd recommend Stoa to anybody else. I can still smile that I didn't participate in NCFCA's sad rubber-stamp excuse for democracy-if they're going to seek input from the students, they should propose changes to be voted on within the board, but allow the affiliates to vote on them, like Stoa. They're not only oligarchs, they don't want to admit it.


Let me get this straight. You are this mad at the administration of what amounts to a home school talent show because you feel they didn't treat your ego the way you wanted. Listen carefully. This is not a point of discussion, this is not an argument, this is a helpful suggestion from someone who's lived a little longer than you. Get over yourself, take a deep breath, pull your dignity out of the toilet you flushed it down and go do something productive with your life that doesn't involve whining on the internet. There is so much more to life than splitting hairs over what happens with this league, friend. Go see for yourself. :)

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Drew wrote:
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Tim is your dad?

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:36 pm 
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Timbalistea wrote:
Let me get this straight. You are this mad at the administration of what amounts to a home school talent show because you feel they didn't treat your ego the way you wanted.


No, I'm mad because of their consistent ridiculous punishments for "rulebreaking," and their lack of punishment for competition that is cheap and entirely outside the intention of the rules in place for the past 6 years that I've been around the league. I tried to explain this to the board member that I talked to but it seems I wasn't taken at all seriously; she simply gave me an explanation of why those punishments were put in place rather than acknowledging my suggestion for change, then gave me a proverbial pat on the head. I was looking for an honest discussion rather than a Q&A and I thought I made that clear when I asked to talk to somebody.

Timbalistea wrote:
Listen carefully. This is not a point of discussion, this is not an argument, this is a helpful suggestion from someone who's lived a little longer than you. Get over yourself, take a deep breath, pull your dignity out of the toilet you flushed it down and go do something productive with your life that doesn't involve whining on the internet. There is so much more to life than splitting hairs over what happens with this league, friend. Go see for yourself.


Point taken. If I end up not coming back to the league then I'm done with HSD, but I'm going to continue to publicly defend my beliefs as long as the league is still an option. Whining isn't the way to do it, and I think I've gotten too close to that; I'll try to keep my future posts productive and charitable.

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Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:15 am 
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Home Schooled: Yes
Quote:
she simply gave me an explanation of why those punishments were put in place rather than acknowledging my suggestion for change,

OHHH! HOW RADICAL OF THE LEADERSHIP! THEY EXPLAINED WHY THE RULES EXIST? HOW DARE THEY! AND THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS? WHAT RIGHT DO THEY HAVE TO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS?

Quote:
then gave me a proverbial pat on the head. I was looking for an honest discussion rather than a Q&A and I thought I made that clear when I asked to talk to somebody.

What if they didn't have time for an honest discussion, or what if they were busy leading an entire organization?

I should go and contact my governor, and then, when he doesn't acknowledge my suggestions for change, and when he doesn't give me the "honest discussion" I want, I should go and make a huge deal out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:57 am 
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SavyAvy wrote:
_idontknow_ wrote:
marinadelayne wrote:
atshelton wrote:
Does the rule about how you have to hold a card the whole time mean that if you drop it you get dropped to the bottom of the room? Cause that seems kind of harsh and dumb. The rule seems pointless anyway but realizing that fact makes it even more annoying.
That's a good question. That would be extremely frustrating.

I think there is a solution to this: Don't drop your card.


For real. How often does dropping your card even happen? Plus, NCFCA isn't that unforgiving.

I've done it at least twice. :P

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-Joshua
The dumb Boatswain's Mate who once did debate
Proud Coastie, Puddle Pirate, and Shallow Water Sailor


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:24 am 
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Let's try to keep the discussion civil, please. Harsh, personal sarcasm is immature and inappropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:25 am 
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Hammy wrote:
SavyAvy wrote:
_idontknow_ wrote:
marinadelayne wrote:
atshelton wrote:
Does the rule about how you have to hold a card the whole time mean that if you drop it you get dropped to the bottom of the room? Cause that seems kind of harsh and dumb. The rule seems pointless anyway but realizing that fact makes it even more annoying.
That's a good question. That would be extremely frustrating.

I think there is a solution to this: Don't drop your card.


For real. How often does dropping your card even happen? Plus, NCFCA isn't that unforgiving.

I've done it at least twice. :P

I've done it about twice too, which is what prompted the question. :P


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:14 am 
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_idontknow_ wrote:
Quote:
she simply gave me an explanation of why those punishments were put in place rather than acknowledging my suggestion for change,

OHHH! HOW RADICAL OF THE LEADERSHIP! THEY EXPLAINED WHY THE RULES EXIST? HOW DARE THEY! AND THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS? WHAT RIGHT DO THEY HAVE TO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS?

Quote:
then gave me a proverbial pat on the head. I was looking for an honest discussion rather than a Q&A and I thought I made that clear when I asked to talk to somebody.

What if they didn't have time for an honest discussion, or what if they were busy leading an entire organization?

I should go and contact my governor, and then, when he doesn't acknowledge my suggestions for change, and when he doesn't give me the "honest discussion" I want, I should go and make a huge deal out of it.


My opinion and defense of it is not perfect. I'm trying to be more charitable than I have been which is why I'm not responding to this in kind. I guess "acknowledge my suggestions" wasn't how I should have put it.

I'm saying I tried to voice my opinion and was essentially told "that's nice, now let me preach for a minute about why authority is important, also don't talk about your opinion anymore." Before that a few families sent an appeal of the #BracketGate parent requirement to the board and were basically told "oh no, we're not changing it. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to reiterate that to you." NCFCA doesn't respect or consider the opposition, they try to silence it.

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Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:09 pm 
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+X wrote:
Let's try to keep the discussion civil, please. Harsh, personal sarcasm is immature and inappropriate.

There is a line between harsh sarcasm and tough love. I don't think that that this has descended past being tough love.

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-Joshua
The dumb Boatswain's Mate who once did debate
Proud Coastie, Puddle Pirate, and Shallow Water Sailor


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:42 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
+X wrote:
Let's try to keep the discussion civil, please. Harsh, personal sarcasm is immature and inappropriate.

There is a line between harsh sarcasm and tough love. I don't think that that this has descended past being tough love.


I agree with Hammy on this.

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Caleb

Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:47 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
+X wrote:
Let's try to keep the discussion civil, please. Harsh, personal sarcasm is immature and inappropriate.

There is a line between harsh sarcasm and tough love. I don't think that that this has descended past being tough love.

_idontknow_ wrote:
OHHH! HOW RADICAL OF THE LEADERSHIP! THEY EXPLAINED WHY THE RULES EXIST? HOW DARE THEY! AND THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS? WHAT RIGHT DO THEY HAVE TO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS?

Dictionary.com wrote:
a mixture of toughness and warmth used in a relationship, especially with an adolescent.

Merriam Webster wrote:
love or concern that is expressed in a strict way especially to make someone behave responsibly


I wouldn't call that "warmth" or "concern" at all. I'd call that a slur.

Merriam Webster wrote:
an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo

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Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:45 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
Hammy wrote:
+X wrote:
Let's try to keep the discussion civil, please. Harsh, personal sarcasm is immature and inappropriate.

There is a line between harsh sarcasm and tough love. I don't think that that this has descended past being tough love.

_idontknow_ wrote:
OHHH! HOW RADICAL OF THE LEADERSHIP! THEY EXPLAINED WHY THE RULES EXIST? HOW DARE THEY! AND THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS? WHAT RIGHT DO THEY HAVE TO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUGGESTIONS?

Dictionary.com wrote:
a mixture of toughness and warmth used in a relationship, especially with an adolescent.

Merriam Webster wrote:
love or concern that is expressed in a strict way especially to make someone behave responsibly


I wouldn't call that "warmth" or "concern" at all. I'd call that a slur.

Merriam Webster wrote:
an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo


If you are defining that particular post as a slur; I think most of your posts in this thread also fall into that category. Simon while probably not needing to use all caps is making a valid point.

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Caleb

Hammy wrote:
Also, Cashley died in a hole. I don't know why you keep trusting him. I mean sure he's super good at mafia and knows exactly what he's doing, but I feel like maybe some game you would just not trust him. :P Props to you Cashley, always making my games exciting.


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:02 pm 
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The Invisible Hand wrote:
If you are defining that particular post as a slur; I think most of your posts in this thread also fall into that category. Simon while probably not needing to use all caps is making a valid point.


Most of my posts? No. Some of them? Yes, and I take responsibility for that. There is a line between constructive criticism and insults; I may have crossed it, Simon definitely did. I fully understand that I'm a flawed human being, but the topic of this thread is not "Is mountain dude a jerk or what," it's "IE Rules." If you want to bash me or voice concerns about my attitude then PM me, don't put it publicly on here; that's not what this thread is for.

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Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:34 pm 
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How is it civil or respectful to join the NCFCA another year, JUST so that you can bash the league and recommend other leagues?
And I agree that my comment was harsh, and I mean nothing personal against you. I just enjoy being blunt and to-the-point, without wasting time covering up what everyone else is thinking. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:16 am 
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_idontknow_ wrote:
How is it civil or respectful to join the NCFCA another year, JUST so that you can bash the league and recommend other leagues?


First, I never said that's why I'm coming back; I said I was coming back because NCFCA is where all my friends are. Second, joining NCFCA doesn't in itself enable me to point out their flaws; that's something I'm choosing to do alongside my membership with the league, not because of it.

It is because of my issues with the organization that I'm doing this. If I hated NCFCA I'd give them the finger and say I didn't care. I care and that's why I'm talking about what they should change. I'm saying that if they don't then I'd recommend another option to my friends. That's not "bashing," disrespectful, or uncivil.

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Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:47 pm 
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As someone who is a few years removed from the league at this point, I have to say that a lot of the things that people complain about mirror how things happen in real life.

Later in life you will likely have a job. In many jobs, taking concerns to your bosses is not met with much support. Many bosses are doing things a certain way because they want them done that certain way, and they are not interested in taking suggestions from someone who is much younger and much more inexperienced. They may be polite (which to some people can seem like head patting), but they really don't have to take your input.

Is that frustrating sometimes? Sure! And in real life if it gets to a point where the person who is lower down on the chain of command is extremely frustrated, often that person will leave and go to a different company.

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Laura

COG Author | NCFCA Alumna | Wife and Mother


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:25 pm 
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bigsister23 wrote:
As someone who is a few years removed from the league at this point, I have to say that a lot of the things that people complain about mirror how things happen in real life.

Later in life you will likely have a job. In many jobs, taking concerns to your bosses is not met with much support. Many bosses are doing things a certain way because they want them done that certain way, and they are not interested in taking suggestions from someone who is much younger and much more inexperienced. They may be polite (which to some people can seem like head patting), but they really don't have to take your input.

Is that frustrating sometimes? Sure! And in real life if it gets to a point where the person who is lower down on the chain of command is extremely frustrated, often that person will leave and go to a different company.


My parents have pointed that out to me before. They, my coaches, and my pastor are still staunchly opposed to NCFCA's way of doing things, and some of them have contacted them about it. I do think it's a good comparison. I don't think that means that constructive criticism is fruitless or inadvisable, and that definitely does not give NCFCA an excuse not to listen to it.

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Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:41 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
bigsister23 wrote:
As someone who is a few years removed from the league at this point, I have to say that a lot of the things that people complain about mirror how things happen in real life.

Later in life you will likely have a job. In many jobs, taking concerns to your bosses is not met with much support. Many bosses are doing things a certain way because they want them done that certain way, and they are not interested in taking suggestions from someone who is much younger and much more inexperienced. They may be polite (which to some people can seem like head patting), but they really don't have to take your input.

Is that frustrating sometimes? Sure! And in real life if it gets to a point where the person who is lower down on the chain of command is extremely frustrated, often that person will leave and go to a different company.


My parents have pointed that out to me before. They, my coaches, and my pastor are still staunchly opposed to NCFCA's way of doing things, and some of them have contacted them about it. I do think it's a good comparison. I don't think that means that constructive criticism is fruitless or inadvisable, and that definitely does not give NCFCA an excuse not to listen to it.

You cannot control other people. You can only control how you respond. There would be nothing wrong with you deciding to switch to Stoa if that would be a better fit for you.

I didn't realize it in high school, but as an adult I learned that sometimes it is better to just let things go and focus my energies elsewhere. Matthew 10:14 says "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Obsessing over it when someone has wronged me does not make them change. It just makes me miserable.

Please know that I say this with kindness. I think it is great that you have consulted with godly adults in your life.

_________________
Laura

COG Author | NCFCA Alumna | Wife and Mother


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:26 pm 
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bigsister23 wrote:
You cannot control other people. You can only control how you respond. There would be nothing wrong with you deciding to switch to Stoa if that would be a better fit for you.

I didn't realize it in high school, but as an adult I learned that sometimes it is better to just let things go and focus my energies elsewhere. Matthew 10:14 says "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Obsessing over it when someone has wronged me does not make them change. It just makes me miserable.

Please know that I say this with kindness. I think it is great that you have consulted with godly adults in your life.


No, I understand. Most of the reason I still want to do debate is because all of my friends are there so for me NCFCA is a better option, but as the organization stands I'd do Stoa if I were starting again without friends in the league. I do think it's worthwhile to tell other people about the problems that I've seen with the organization and defend my beliefs about them, and that's mainly why I'm doing this.

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Jonathan Meckel || Nebraska || NCFCA Boycotter. #BracketGate #BracketLivesMatter
Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your pride


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:29 pm 
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NCFCA Extemp rule: "During the presentation, the speaker must hold and use only one 3”x 5” note card prepared during prep
time."

I feel like it could be reasonably argued that the rule is only limiting use of more than one card, not requiring you to hold one.

I also think I remember from the extemp poll something along the lines of a question asking if I was finished writing my card before the time was up, which I answered 'yes' to. But I've always used the entire prep time to practice my speech and add things. I just finish my card early. I'm not really a fan of the time change but hopefully it'll help with getting tournaments on time and it might be easier to get to other speeches on time. I'm still not sure I'm going to be okay with giving the proctor my card afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:50 am 
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I just heard back from the IE Committee. They confirmed that the 3x5 card is required in the speech.

_________________
-Joshua
The dumb Boatswain's Mate who once did debate
Proud Coastie, Puddle Pirate, and Shallow Water Sailor


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