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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:57 pm 
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Apologetic cards must now be 3x5 inches or smaller.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:00 pm 
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Seabass00 wrote:
Apologetic cards must now be 3x5 inches or smaller.
I think you may be mistaken. It still said 5x6 or smaller last time I checked. Though extemp cards of course must be 3x5 or smaller.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:11 pm 
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Evan wrote:
Hammy wrote:
I'm proud to say that NCFCA isn't run by the students. This is a competitive league and Democracy shouldn't be valued for the competitors. Perhaps you're familiar with something called biased interests?

We've been over this extensively in other threads, so I don't see a need to unearth those hatchets. ;) All I'll say on the matter is that NCFCA operates more like an oligarchy. Stoa is a representative democracy. Not a pure one. Democracy should be valued for the competitors and their families, because that's who the league is all about - enabling students to become winsome communicators for Christ. "Biased interests" is not a valid argument against the Stoa model. It's worked for the past six (going on seven) years now. You can't deny that. The leagues have different approaches to attain the same goal. As long as you are happy with remaining placated under the influence, direction, and personal whims of an oligarchic leadership, I guess you suit yourself.


Seconding. It's worth noting that Stoa's leadership acknowledges that NCFCA is a great league for homeschool debate competition, but NCFCA does not do likewise. Stoa also listens to the opposition rather than ignoring it or trying to shut it down. Stoa is also bigger and they let people do tournaments basically however the heck they want; if my friends weren't in NCFCA, I'd prefer Stoa for the same reasons I prefer the United States to China. ;)

_idontknow_ wrote:
I was one of the people who got the survey by the NCFCA, and I know that I mentioned the fact that with extemp genie, and electronic extemp, 30 minutes is too much.


Not everybody uses extemp genie...I know if I'm going to shell out 25 bucks for something it's going to be for a mag or newspaper subscription, not software.

Honestly, I think this signifies a move towards a form-over-substance mindset. 2/3 as much prep time to speak on FIVE categories instead of three (see #2 in the extemp rules) means that students will lean more heavily on their speaking skills and less heavily on their actual knowledge of the issues at hand. Which is more important in the real world, being a passionate speaker or knowing your stuff? Obama was (well, is) a great speaker and that's part of what won him the White House, but that doesn't make him a good president.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:40 pm 
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mountain dude wrote:
Not everybody uses extemp genie...I know if I'm going to shell out 25 bucks for something it's going to be for a mag or newspaper subscription, not software.

Well, if your not willing to that's kind of on you.

I don't think that 20 minutes is too short of a time to get thoroughly educated on the background of a subject and present your opinion and justifications supporting that opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:14 am 
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Voice of Reason wrote:
Well, if your not willing to that's kind of on you.

I don't think that 20 minutes is too short of a time to get thoroughly educated on the background of a subject and present your opinion and justifications supporting that opinion.

Fair enough, but it still decreases the quality of speeches across the board whether you use extemp genie or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:14 am 
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marinadelayne wrote:
Seabass00 wrote:
Apologetic cards must now be 3x5 inches or smaller.
I think you may be mistaken. It still said 5x6 or smaller last time I checked. Though extemp cards of course must be 3x5 or smaller.

THANK YOU :lol: :oops: :lol: ! I guess I shouldn't skim-read rules that are intended to be intently studied!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:05 am 
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Quote:
Both of these are egregious changes. If a student wants to develop a speech and deliver it without a card, he/she should be able to.

But you can still technically leave the card blank and give a speech with no evidence, right? :P

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:52 am 
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ShaynePC wrote:
NCFCA making awful decisions? No way!

As far as the survey, I'm guessing it was only sent out to selected, personally known people, as no one in the far reaches (IE not region 7/8) apparently got it. Typical.


I got the survey but declined to participate. :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
...and they probably wouldn't have listened to what I said much anyway. :P

Cyberknight wrote:
But you can still technically leave the card blank and give a speech with no evidence, right?


"Hold and use," see my previous post.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:25 am 
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ShaynePC wrote:
NCFCA making awful decisions? No way!

As far as the survey, I'm guessing it was only sent out to selected, personally known people, as no one in the far reaches (IE not region 7/8) apparently got it. Typical.


My family got it, even though my dad has clashed with the leadership over extemp issues before.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:27 am 
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Quote:
As far as the survey, I'm guessing it was only sent out to selected, personally known people, as no one in the far reaches (IE not region 7/8) apparently got it. Typical.

Well, I got it. :) But I also declined to participate, because I didn't want to admit that I did zero independent research XD.

Quote:
"Hold and use," see my previous post.

Right, but technically you could just right a couple things down on it without any sources, and go without evidence, right?

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:45 am 
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I got the survey and am not particularly well acquainted with any of the leadership. Though I did compete at nats...whatever it just seems to have a been a bit random.

Going down to twenty minutes is going to be okay I think. That's about how long I usually spend writing my speech, and then just use the rest to run through it. At first I probably won't be as polished, but practice should remedy that.

As for not being allowed to go off card...well I just don't see why that shouldn't be an option. It is removing a legitimate channel for demonstrating superior speaking skills and grasp of the subject. It is worth noting that you aren't required to put anything on the card and there isn't a rule against folding it. So theoretically you could fold it several times and come very close to not having a card, though it would certainly be inconvenient.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:37 am 
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MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:
As for not being allowed to go off card...well I just don't see why that shouldn't be an option. It is removing a legitimate channel for demonstrating superior speaking skills and grasp of the subject. It is worth noting that you aren't required to put anything on the card and there isn't a rule against folding it. So theoretically you could fold it several times and come very close to not having a card, though it would certainly be inconvenient.

Origami in extemp is now a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:59 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:
As for not being allowed to go off card...well I just don't see why that shouldn't be an option. It is removing a legitimate channel for demonstrating superior speaking skills and grasp of the subject. It is worth noting that you aren't required to put anything on the card and there isn't a rule against folding it. So theoretically you could fold it several times and come very close to not having a card, though it would certainly be inconvenient.

Origami in extemp is now a thing.
Except that then you'll probably get called to JO and given a talk about the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law. >.>

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:52 pm 
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marinadelayne wrote:
Hammy wrote:
MeAndMyBriefcase wrote:
As for not being allowed to go off card...well I just don't see why that shouldn't be an option. It is removing a legitimate channel for demonstrating superior speaking skills and grasp of the subject. It is worth noting that you aren't required to put anything on the card and there isn't a rule against folding it. So theoretically you could fold it several times and come very close to not having a card, though it would certainly be inconvenient.

Origami in extemp is now a thing.
Except that then you'll probably get called to JO and given a talk about the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law. >.>

No, you'd just get marked down on your ballot for being distracted by your card. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:59 am 
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marinadelayne wrote:
atshelton wrote:
Does the rule about how you have to hold a card the whole time mean that if you drop it you get dropped to the bottom of the room? Cause that seems kind of harsh and dumb. The rule seems pointless anyway but realizing that fact makes it even more annoying.
That's a good question. That would be extremely frustrating.

I think there is a solution to this: Don't drop your card.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:11 am 
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_idontknow_ wrote:
marinadelayne wrote:
atshelton wrote:
Does the rule about how you have to hold a card the whole time mean that if you drop it you get dropped to the bottom of the room? Cause that seems kind of harsh and dumb. The rule seems pointless anyway but realizing that fact makes it even more annoying.
That's a good question. That would be extremely frustrating.

I think there is a solution to this: Don't drop your card.


For real. How often does dropping your card even happen? Plus, NCFCA isn't that unforgiving.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:32 am 
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mountain dude wrote:
I got the survey but declined to participate. :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
...and they probably wouldn't have listened to what I said much anyway. :P

I don't see how you can be so outraged about rule changes when you were polled, had the opportunity to express disagreement or satisfaction with the former standards, and declined to do so. The same rule that applies to citizens who complain about their government but don't participate in elections applies in this case.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:57 am 
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Voice of Reason wrote:
I don't see how you can be so outraged about rule changes when you were polled, had the opportunity to express disagreement or satisfaction with the former standards, and declined to do so. The same rule that applies to citizens who complain about their government but don't participate in elections applies in this case.


At that point there was about a 1 in 1,000 chance of me coming back to NCFCA, so why would I participate in some dumb extemp survey. I said to myself "I'll come back if they make changes" because I respectfully brought my issues with the league to the leadership in person and I received nothing more in return than "here's why we disagree with you, now let me butter you up so you don't go and complain on HSD anymore." The only reason I may do NCFCA this year is because it's where all of my friends are-I'd recommend Stoa to anybody else. I can still smile that I didn't participate in NCFCA's sad rubber-stamp excuse for democracy-if they're going to seek input from the students, they should propose changes to be voted on within the board, but allow the affiliates to vote on them, like Stoa. They're not only oligarchs, they don't want to admit it.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:52 am 
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At that point there was about a 1 in 1,000 chance of me coming back to NCFCA, so why would I participate in some dumb extemp survey. I said to myself "I'll come back if they make changes" because I respectfully brought my issues with the league to the leadership in person and I received nothing more in return than "here's why we disagree with you, now let me butter you up so you don't go and complain on HSD anymore." The only reason I may do NCFCA this year is because it's where all of my friends are-I'd recommend Stoa to anybody else. I can still smile that I didn't participate in NCFCA's sad rubber-stamp excuse for democracy-if they're going to seek input from the students, they should propose changes to be voted on within the board, but allow the affiliates to vote on them, like Stoa. They're not only oligarchs, they don't want to admit it.

You are so angry at the NCFCA, calm down. If you dislike the NCFCA so much, just leave. I doubt NCFCA wants you to compete if you are there just to bash them and angrily recommend others to another league. You are so fed up with the NCFCA, yet you can't leave it.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:15 am 
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mountain dude wrote:
Voice of Reason wrote:
I don't see how you can be so outraged about rule changes when you were polled, had the opportunity to express disagreement or satisfaction with the former standards, and declined to do so. The same rule that applies to citizens who complain about their government but don't participate in elections applies in this case.


At that point there was about a 1 in 1,000 chance of me coming back to NCFCA, so why would I participate in some dumb extemp survey. I said to myself "I'll come back if they make changes" because I respectfully brought my issues with the league to the leadership in person and I received nothing more in return than "here's why we disagree with you, now let me butter you up so you don't go and complain on HSD anymore." The only reason I may do NCFCA this year is because it's where all of my friends are-I'd recommend Stoa to anybody else. I can still smile that I didn't participate in NCFCA's sad rubber-stamp excuse for democracy-if they're going to seek input from the students, they should propose changes to be voted on within the board, but allow the affiliates to vote on them, like Stoa. They're not only oligarchs, they don't want to admit it.


Let me get this straight. You are this mad at the administration of what amounts to a home school talent show because you feel they didn't treat your ego the way you wanted. Listen carefully. This is not a point of discussion, this is not an argument, this is a helpful suggestion from someone who's lived a little longer than you. Get over yourself, take a deep breath, pull your dignity out of the toilet you flushed it down and go do something productive with your life that doesn't involve whining on the internet. There is so much more to life than splitting hairs over what happens with this league, friend. Go see for yourself. :)

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