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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:02 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
marinadelayne wrote:
Jonah.a.barnes wrote:
SavyAvy wrote:
Also, I wish the survey had been sent out to everyone in the league so that everyone could weigh in. Oh well.

I don't think it should have been sent to everyone. Because not everyone has competed in extemp.
I haven't competed in extemp, so why should I get to say what is better?
It should still have been sent to every family. Just because someone didn't compete in extemp one year doesn't mean that they haven't competed before or that they aren't planning on competing in the future. And I don't see why people who haven't competed in extemp previously ought to be excluded anyways. If NCFCA is going to actually conduct a survey to decide whether or not to implement a rule change, then they should give everyone an equal opportunity to respond.

The survey asked questions that were specifically about our experience in extemp. It would have been silly to send it to people who didn't compete in extemp.
Still doesn't change the fact that, under that system, people who didn't compete in extemp this past year but competed previously and/or are planning on competing in the future (and there are quite a few people who fit that description) would be excluded.

And it appears that it didn't even go to all extemp competitors from this past year, seeing as Savannah didn't get the opportunity to respond to it.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:21 pm 
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marinadelayne wrote:
And it appears that it didn't even go to all extemp competitors from this past year, seeing as Savannah didn't get the opportunity to respond to it.

It may have only gone to people who competed at Nationals. The wording of the email was:

Quote:
As the IE Committee is evaluating our NCFCA Extemp information and rules, we thought it may be helpful to hear some feedback from those most involved in the event. Because of your participation as either a competitor, coach, judge or monitor, you have been specifically chosen to take part in this survey about your NCFCA Extemp experience!

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:24 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
It may have only gone to people who competed at Nationals.
Except that I received it and didn't compete at nationals. :P It just seems somewhat random to me.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:31 pm 
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Or, y'know, they could have put the issue up to an actual vote and heard and discussed feedback from the constituency.

Oh wait, that's what Stoa does. NCFCA doesn't want to be too democratic or too much like the other league, because leadership always knows what's best. :roll:

Sarcasm aside, I do appreciate that they at the very least sent out a survey. Improvement seems to be coming in baby steps. And when I was in Extemp, I rarely used all 30 minutes. I managed my time like Savy did.

Students will learn to adapt, and the new 20-minute rule may or may not improve the situation. I just honestly don't see why such a drastic change was necessary, or is a major improvement over the 30 minutes.

Also, the other changes are not being discussed too much here. I would have preferred they kept three topics but put them on one slip of paper. Why eliminate 33% of the options? I know that I appreciated having three options throughout my limited prep speeches. It helped me know that even if I get one or two "bad" or "worse" options, there was normally at least one I could fall back on.

tl;dr: Sure, students will adapt to the new rules, and events will become a little more challenging. The changes jolt people out of the norm, and sometimes it's a good thing to get out of the rut you're used to. I remain firmly unconvinced that these changes will actually prove to be beneficial or serve students' interests in the long run.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:35 pm 
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I'm about to read through the Biblical interpretation, excuse me, presentation :), rules, but I will say that I don't terribly mind the Extemp changes. I've only done extemp a few times but I think that limiting it to 20 minutes isn't too bad. It makes it more challenging but as others have said before, Extemp got a lot simpler when it changed to its digital format.
I don't like the rule changes for draw slips on impromptu/apol (or at least how others have explained them to me) and would agree with Evan's opinion above ^^.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Well, the Biblical presentation rules are short but interesting. It's mostly what we would have expected I suppose. They allow multiple passages which is pretty important. I find it interesting (if not strange and unconventional) that they allow a "blanket" prop so to speak (40 inches by 40 inches) into the presentation. I guess I'm glad that they added the rule because it should add an interesting and unique element to the speech.

I'd say that overall the Biblical Interp rules are more student-friendly than I expected, but I still don't expect it to attract anywhere near the amount of participation that After Dinner and Humorous would/did.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:48 pm 
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Voice of Reason wrote:
I don't like the rule changes for draw slips on impromptu/apol (or at least how others have explained them to me) and would agree with Evan's opinion above
That's the rule change that frustrates me the most. I don't understand why it was necessary and can only see it decreasing the quality of speeches (since people are more likely to be stuck with a topic they are less familiar/prepared for).

For the extemp rule, I feel sure I'll be able to adapt accordingly, as will other extempers. But it will make it much harder for newer competitors. And I still think that more people should have been consulted before the change was made, as Evan said.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Evan wrote:
Oh wait, that's what Stoa does. NCFCA doesn't want to be too democratic or too much like the other league, because leadership always knows what's best. :roll:

I'm proud to say that NCFCA isn't run by the students. This is a competitive league and Democracy shouldn't be valued for the competitors. Perhaps you're familiar with something called biased interests?

Evan wrote:
I just honestly don't see why such a drastic change was necessary, or is a major improvement over the 30 minutes.

Easy. As computers are cycled in, the actual need for time decreases. As such, the extra time is removed. It keeps the event challenging. This isn't Bingo in a retirement home, this is a speech competition.

Also, from a practical level it will help with tournament run times. Extemp is often the category that gets in the way and delays tournaments. This just gives a whole new level of flexibility to competitors who are entered in multiple events. I'm sure that the board took this into account.

Evan wrote:
Also, the other changes are not being discussed too much here. I would have preferred they kept three topics but put them on one slip of paper. Why eliminate 33% of the options? I know that I appreciated having three options throughout my limited prep speeches. It helped me know that even if I get one or two "bad" or "worse" options, there was normally at least one I could fall back on.

It makes it more challenging. I don't really have a problem with this. I would quite honestly be game for single topics. :P In real life you don't normally get to choose between topics if someone is talking to you.

Plus, on a practical side it lightens the load of the tournament organizers. They don't have to come up with quite so many topics. Not a big deal, but I'm sure it will be a slight help to them.

Evan wrote:
The changes jolt people out of the norm, and sometimes it's a good thing to get out of the rut you're used to.

That will only serve to build up our mental capacities to new levels.

marinadelayne wrote:
That's the rule change that frustrates me the most. I don't understand why it was necessary and can only see it decreasing the quality of speeches (since people are more likely to be stuck with a topic they are less familiar/prepared for).

Oh come on, anyone who knows what they're doing in Impromptu/Apol will not be harmed by only have two topics. They're prepared to speak on anything, that's how the event works. Even the newer people won't be harmed because let's face it, they won't be able to speak any better on this topic vs. this topic. I've been helping new students for a long time and I still remember competing as a newb myself, this won't actually harm any of them. Quite honestly, it might help them because they won't waste so much time picking a topic because there are only two choices.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:26 pm 
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Hammy wrote:
This isn't Bingo in a retirement home, this is a speech competition.
I laughed.
Hammy wrote:
Evan wrote:
Also, the other changes are not being discussed too much here. I would have preferred they kept three topics but put them on one slip of paper. Why eliminate 33% of the options? I know that I appreciated having three options throughout my limited prep speeches. It helped me know that even if I get one or two "bad" or "worse" options, there was normally at least one I could fall back on.

It makes it more challenging. I don't really have a problem with this. I would quite honestly be game for single topics. :P In real life you don't normally get to choose between topics if someone is talking to you.


In real life you aren't usually called upon to defend something that you've never heard of in less than 2 minutes of preparation-you talk about ideas that you have already pre-formulated in your mind and you respond to the other person's arguments (like debate :P ). Impromptu isn't a real-life situation (though it has more real-life application than probably most of the other subjects) it's about developing skills.

I would have preferred a give and take formula - reduce the number of subjects and increase the amount of prep time. I don't necessarily agree with eliminating a third of our options. Hammy makes some good points though. And I agree, sometimes it would be simpler to just go with one quote and not spend 30 seconds arguing with yourself which one to take. I would prefer a 1 topic 3 minutes of prep or 2 topics 2:30 or 3 topics 2:00.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:29 pm 
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I've competed in extemp every year and still didn't get an email. Oh well.

I also am not a fan of the two topics instead of three. Not just because there's less variety, but also because I liked choosing from topics other people had rejected. It made it fun to be the last person in the room and getting to see the options many people had put back.

I wish they could have waited till after my senior year to change up all the rules. :? And it doesn't have to be a democracy to ask for more input. At least the extemp rule change had a survey to some people. But the impromptu one just seems out of the blue.

Oh oh oh! They also essentially banned going off card. That's no fun either!

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:14 pm 
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SavyAvy wrote:
Oh oh oh! They also essentially banned going off card. That's no fun either!
I think you should have a choice, because that is one way some people like to stand out. And if you go off card it shows that you have a good grasp of what you are talking about, and didn't just write it down.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:40 pm 
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SavyAvy wrote:
Oh oh oh! They also essentially banned going off card. That's no fun either!

How so? Are you referring to the rule that "The speaker must turn in his card and draw slip at the end of his speech to the Extemp staff in the Extemp Prep room?" (This rule is new, correct?).

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:09 pm 
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Voice of Reason wrote:
SavyAvy wrote:
Oh oh oh! They also essentially banned going off card. That's no fun either!

How so? Are you referring to the rule that "The speaker must turn in his card and draw slip at the end of his speech to the Extemp staff in the Extemp Prep room?" (This rule is new, correct?).


My mom has not re-affiliated yet (not sure why), but I was told that one of the rules is that a speaker must hold a 3'-by-5' card at all time during an extemp speech. So that's sad. People use their card as a crutch, and now that's mandatory.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:15 pm 
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SavyAvy wrote:
Voice of Reason wrote:
SavyAvy wrote:
Oh oh oh! They also essentially banned going off card. That's no fun either!

How so? Are you referring to the rule that "The speaker must turn in his card and draw slip at the end of his speech to the Extemp staff in the Extemp Prep room?" (This rule is new, correct?).


My mom has not re-affiliated yet (not sure why), but I was told that one of the rules is that a speaker must hold a 3'-by-5' card at all time during an extemp speech. So that's sad. People use their card as a crutch, and now that's mandatory.

That's what it says. I've emailed NCFCA for clarification.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:23 pm 
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FTR, I am staunchly opposed to banning off card speeches. It is a legitimate mode of communication. In fact, it is much more similar to a real-world format, where you don't have a card with sources. Why NCFCA decided to ban it is beyond me. Sure, there might have been some people who didn't fully memorize their sources, but we shouldn't be punishing the people who go above and beyond by memorizing their sources for the infractions of a couple people who can't. I watched the winner of NITOC 2015 give a fantastic speech without a card. For some students, the no-card method really helps them do well, and now NCFCA has taken that away.

Hammy wrote:
I'm proud to say that NCFCA isn't run by the students. This is a competitive league and Democracy shouldn't be valued for the competitors. Perhaps you're familiar with something called biased interests?


We've been over this extensively in other threads, so I don't see a need to unearth those hatchets. ;) All I'll say on the matter is that NCFCA operates more like an oligarchy. Stoa is a representative democracy. Not a pure one. Democracy should be valued for the competitors and their families, because that's who the league is all about - enabling students to become winsome communicators for Christ. "Biased interests" is not a valid argument against the Stoa model. It's worked for the past six (going on seven) years now. You can't deny that. The leagues have different approaches to attain the same goal. As long as you are happy with remaining placated under the influence, direction, and personal whims of an oligarchic leadership, I guess you suit yourself.

Hammy wrote:
Easy. As computers are cycled in, the actual need for time decreases. As such, the extra time is removed. It keeps the event challenging. This isn't Bingo in a retirement home, this is a speech competition.

Also, from a practical level it will help with tournament run times. Extemp is often the category that gets in the way and delays tournaments. This just gives a whole new level of flexibility to competitors who are entered in multiple events. I'm sure that the board took this into account.

Now these are legitimate points. Extemp does take up a lot of time and effort from tournament staff. Like I said, I'm sure students will adjust, even though I'm not too big of a fan of the move.

Hammy wrote:
It makes it more challenging. I don't really have a problem with this. I would quite honestly be game for single topics. :P In real life you don't normally get to choose between topics if someone is talking to you.

Plus, on a practical side it lightens the load of the tournament organizers. They don't have to come up with quite so many topics. Not a big deal, but I'm sure it will be a slight help to them.

What JMP said. You might be happy with a single topic, but the novice just starting out and who only has 15 Apol cards at the first tournament probably will not be.

Hammy wrote:
That will only serve to build up our mental capacities to new levels.


Again, what I was saying is that while "building up your mental capacities to new levels" is good, I'm not convinced this is the best way to accomplish that goal.

Hammy wrote:
Oh come on, anyone who knows what they're doing in Impromptu/Apol will not be harmed by only have two topics. They're prepared to speak on anything, that's how the event works. Even the newer people won't be harmed because let's face it, they won't be able to speak any better on this topic vs. this topic. I've been helping new students for a long time and I still remember competing as a newb myself, this won't actually harm any of them. Quite honestly, it might help them because they won't waste so much time picking a topic because there are only two choices.

This point is really a wash tbh. Even when I was in my senior year of competition, I appreciated having three choices. Sometimes I had two out of the three or even all three that were fantastic picks, and I had the chance to deliberate a little bit on which one would work. More choices serve to give students more options to talk about - and that's a good thing.

So why not four topics or five? Because three is a pretty standard number in speech and debate. Three points, three contentions, three-minute cross examinations, etc. Having three choices is a good continuation of the trend. There's some students who may be harmed by two topics, some who it won't make a difference, and some newer people who may be helped. But I'm willing to bet that the proportion of people hurt by the move vs. the people helped tilts much more in the direction of people hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:37 pm 
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+X wrote:
Extemp prep has always been too long. Now that you have electronic extemp and can control f your articles and immediately get your own individual copies, prep should take even less time. It's a good decision for the league, and will help extemp be easier to manage/judge, and will help competitors with larger numbers of events. Good call by the leadership.

Agreed.

I was one of the people who got the survey by the NCFCA, and I know that I mentioned the fact that with extemp genie, and electronic extemp, 30 minutes is too much.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:11 pm 
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Does the rule about how you have to hold a card the whole time mean that if you drop it you get dropped to the bottom of the room? Cause that seems kind of harsh and dumb. The rule seems pointless anyway but realizing that fact makes it even more annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:21 pm 
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atshelton wrote:
Does the rule about how you have to hold a card the whole time mean that if you drop it you get dropped to the bottom of the room? Cause that seems kind of harsh and dumb. The rule seems pointless anyway but realizing that fact makes it even more annoying.
That's a good question. That would be extremely frustrating.

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:30 pm 
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atshelton wrote:
Does the rule about how you have to hold a card the whole time mean that if you drop it you get dropped to the bottom of the room? Cause that seems kind of harsh and dumb. The rule seems pointless anyway but realizing that fact makes it even more annoying.


No. It says "during the presentation, the speaker must hold and use..." so as long as you hold it and use it during your speech you're fine. It does not say "during the entire presentation, the speaker must hold and use..."

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 Post subject: Re: IE Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:50 pm 
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Every extemp speech I gave for my last 3 years were all off-card. I constantly tell students that there is no reason to not go off card. It really adds a lot to the experience, makes your speeches better and teaches valuable skills that improve quick memorization skills. I hadn't originally noticed that rule, but I am VERY against this.

I will be writing the leadership about this. Even if it doesn't change anything they need to know what they're doing.


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