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 Post subject: Advocacy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:09 pm 
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I know this is a really novicey thing to say, but I've been thinking, and what is the purpose of advocacy? It seems to me, that the purpose of debate is to develop the ability to synthesize information. Advocacy is basically just a veiled appeal to authority, which adds further weight to a case, but isn't a perquisite.

What do ya'll think?

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Last edited by John III on Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:14 pm 
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It's not a "requirement". But it sure is persuasive.

Too many debaters synthesize nothing, haven't researched or thought through a problem, but make up a plan and try to pass it.

Advocacy is good for people starting to debate to learn to make warranted claims. It's also persuasive... so having it is superior to not having it ;)

But if you can provide warranted claims to "advocate" your plan, the function of advocacy (plan is good) is fulfilled.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Advocacy adds a great deal of credibility to your plan, because it proves this is a reasonable real-world idea that experts agree with (and not just your own wacky interpretation of a cobbled-together collection of quotes.)

It's not technically required, but the quality of debate is generally improved if people act like it is - because it forces people to actually get into the literature.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Advocacy, like Isaiah and MSD have said, adds a lot of credibility to you, your case, and the debate round. It proves that your case isn't simply backed up by a plethora of quotations from random people, or by historical empirics. Rather, it proves that there are actual real-world experts who agree wholeheartedly with your plan.

Mostly, advocacy experts fully endorse or have proposed the Affirmative plan in its entirety. This gives an extra boost of credibility - that the plan isn't just something the 1A cooked up after a bad breakfast burrito.

Also, advocacy can bump up your "evidence" speaker point scores with a wide range of judges (mommy/community judges like to hear "advocacy," alumni/coaches also like it because it is an oft-neglected part of debate).

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:13 am 
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Would you perform surgery with homemade equipment?

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:41 am 
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What, specifically, are you defining as "advocacy?" Because, if you mean what I think you mean, I have a pretty different view of it than the above three posts. But I don't want to start a flame war without knowing exactly what you're talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:24 am 
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LocutusofBorg wrote:
What, specifically, are you defining as "advocacy?" Because, if you mean what I think you mean, I have a pretty different view of it than the above three posts. But I don't want to start a flame war without knowing exactly what you're talking about.

Advocacy meaning a particular person perceived as credible who supports the implementation of your plan in its totality.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Halogen wrote:
Would you perform surgery with homemade equipment?

<3

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Gold Water's Ghost wrote:
who supports the implementation of your plan in its totality.

This interpretation is nearly impossible for affirmative teams to follow. There are very few experts who create policy recommendations according to debatersish norms. With your definition of advocacy, nearly every affirmative case is illegitimate.

Therefore, your interpretation, if followed, would severely damage debate by barring most legitimate policy discussions.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Mr Glasses wrote:
Gold Water's Ghost wrote:
who supports the implementation of your plan in its totality.

This interpretation is nearly impossible for affirmative teams to follow. There are very few experts who create policy recommendations according to debatersish norms. With your definition of advocacy, nearly every affirmative case is illegitimate.

Therefore, your interpretation, if followed, would severely damage debate by barring most legitimate policy discussions.

Okay, how would you amend it then?

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:54 pm 
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Isaiah wrote:
Halogen wrote:
Would you perform surgery with homemade equipment?

<3


There's a substantial difference between policy and science (especially since political scientists are collectively, by their own measure, about as accurate as chimps throwing darts). That's not to say that advocacy isn't bad or that you shouldn't look for it, but it's also overrated. The flip side to everything you guys are saying is also true: if the fact that no one advocating the aff is a sign that the aff is a bad plan, then you should be able to explain why it's a bad plan. So while a lack of advocacy may be helpful in that regards (you'll know to look at implementation problems or unintended consequences), just saying "no advocacy because something could go wrong" isn't enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:05 pm 
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andrewmin wrote:
Isaiah wrote:
Halogen wrote:
Would you perform surgery with homemade equipment?
<3
There's a substantial difference between policy and science (especially since political scientists are collectively, by their own measure, about as accurate as chimps throwing darts). That's not to say that advocacy isn't bad or that you shouldn't look for it, but it's also overrated. The flip side to everything you guys are saying is also true: if the fact that no one advocating the aff is a sign that the aff is a bad plan, then you should be able to explain why it's a bad plan. So while a lack of advocacy may be helpful in that regards (you'll know to look at implementation problems or unintended consequences), just saying "no advocacy because something could go wrong" isn't enough.
This is why not having advocacy is mainly something the Affirmative should fix, not something the Negative should attack. "No advocacy" is mostly only useful as a solvency takeout when the Affirmative is being slippery and kind of just assuming their plan will work.

...that said, that analogy is AWESOME.

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Abe bimuí bithúo dousí abe - "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"

COG 2016 generics-only sourcebook - NCFCA/Stoa (thread)
Factsmith research software - v1.4 currently available (thread)
Loose Nukes debate blog - stuff to read with your eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:00 pm 
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MSD wrote:
This is why not having advocacy is mainly something the Affirmative should fix, not something the Negative should attack. "No advocacy" is mostly only useful as a solvency takeout when the Affirmative is being slippery and kind of just assuming their plan will work.
This is how I came to view advocacy as well. I held my own cases to a far higher standard than I expected of my opponents' cases. I was never truly satisfied with any of the cases I ran (the only one that came close was passed in real life before tournament season), and I was constantly rejecting case ideas because they didn't have advocacy that could garner my confidence in real life.

It's impossible to hold an opponent's plan to the same standard because it requires hours of thought and research to give a quality assessment of its credibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:43 am 
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andrewmin wrote:
Isaiah wrote:
Halogen wrote:
Would you perform surgery with homemade equipment?

<3


Yes! ;) But they aren't really comparable. I mean, if I were a highly trained and advanced surgeon, and I knew my equipment would work because of logic and careful reasoning / application, then yes, I totally would. If I were just myself, deciding to derp around without having any training / knowledge, then no. It's different.

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 Post subject: Re: Advocacy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:53 am 
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Advocacy is overrated, especially if the plan is supported by warrants, logic, and implied advocacy. The problem comes when Negs argue that a case always needs direct advocacy before it can even be considered. This severely limits debaters' ability to find creative solutions to SQ harms that don't need to be directly supported by literature. However, your case does need to have warrants and at least some implied advocacy, meaning that Expert 1 says we need X and Expert 2 says we need Y so you create a program that solves for both X and Y.

I'm using too many variables. I'm not to this at all.

But anyways, does that make sense?

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