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 Post subject: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:08 am 
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If mandates say plan is immediately passed, does it fiat past all real world constraints? Rider, agenda crowd-out, most politics would all be ignored. I'd argue that most fiat-linked DA's happen during the process of fiat, and that the real world outweighs. Problem with that is that fiat is theoretically instantaneous, there's no brightline between fiat-linked DA's and solvency abuse, and that all non-postfiat arguments are questions of would, not should.

Guess the question is: Fiat-linked DA's, yes or no?

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:55 pm 
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Idrox wrote:
Guess the question is: Fiat-linked DA's, yes or no?


In my opinion, no. Politics DAs, for one, are based on real world processes (deals, poly cap, etc). Fiat is inherently not real world, so I don't see how it can link into consequences from a practice it doesn't involve itself in. There's a disconnect between the real world, and the assumption that a plan passes that most fiat-linked DAs I've seen completely ignore (not to mention how hard it would be for debate to predict the specific process used to pass the bill).

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:21 pm 
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ldrox wrote:
If mandates say plan is immediately passed, does it fiat past all real world constraints? Rider, agenda crowd-out, most politics would all be ignored. I'd argue that most fiat-linked DA's happen during the process of fiat, and that the real world outweighs. Problem with that is that fiat is theoretically instantaneous, there's no brightline between fiat-linked DA's and solvency abuse, and that all non-postfiat arguments are questions of would, not should.

Guess the question is: Fiat-linked DA's, yes or no?
Depends on the impacts. I've impacted Constitution violated a couple of times, as well as meaningless plan. Arguing meaningless plan is basically arguing solvency with an impact of wasted time... which is totally weak... but the judge bought it :D.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:42 am 
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You get to fiat that the plan gets passed. Now you have to live with the consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:28 am 
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For the purposes of the debate round I don't see why immediate passage is worse than one week, one month or one year waiting period, how could you possibly determine the brink at 5 months it is bad but at the 5 month plus one day point you are OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:20 am 
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ldrox wrote:
If mandates say plan is immediately passed, does it fiat past all real world constraints? Rider, agenda crowd-out, most politics would all be ignored. I'd argue that most fiat-linked DA's happen during the process of fiat, and that the real world outweighs. Problem with that is that fiat is theoretically instantaneous, there's no brightline between fiat-linked DA's and solvency abuse, and that all non-postfiat arguments are questions of would, not should.

Generally the standard I've seen is that it avoids "process-based disads" but can still link to the "political consequences". So you don't push something off the agenda, but you might have to suffer with backlash from your base.

If process-based arguments can link, then every neg can just re-introduce the "would they?" question by saying, "opponents will filibuster". The question is, again, "Should plan happen" not "would it?" Unless your plan includes riders (and hence probably extra-topical planks), the neg doesn't get to argue that "plan is so important X rider will get attached to it and pass." Theoretically they could argue that because one side made a concession in this case, they expect a concession in another. The "concession" argument is, in my view, one of the most borderline disads: did they really "make" a concession, or are we just imagining a world in which plan happens?


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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:16 am 
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What's the brightline between acceptable uses of fiat vs. solvency abuse? How much of reality do we get to brush aside for the purposes of debate?

@Avoids process, bites consequences
Fiat exists so that we can evaluate post-plan consequences. Couldn't you argue that as long as we engage in debate on the post-fiat impacts, mid-fiat impacts, or the consequences of the process, are fair game?

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:34 am 
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I've never seen or heard of a fiat DA in the NCFCA, but in the NFA its generally assumed you have to work within the real world.

Most teams are running (or did run before Christmas--it has to be updated) a START DA which basically said (this particular shell is, I believe Truman St.):
Uniqueness:
1. START passes in lame duck
2. Republicans will fillibuster any bill except taxes or START
Link:
Aff plan is neither START nor taxes
IL:
1. Instantaneous fiat means that aff plan will be debated immediately
2. Republicans fillibuster
3. Because of that START won't pass
Impact:
No START=Nuke war

I've tried to no link it before with the fiat argument--the instant you check "aff" the plan passes, regardless of real-world. The judges didn't buy it (though I still won the round), because of the general assumptions inherent in NFA debate, and probably the debate world in general. A much much easier way to beat such DAs as aff is to non-U, L turn, no L, or imp turn. That way you avoid the theory debate and get some offense on the flow.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:18 pm 
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LocutusofBorg wrote:
I've tried to no link it before with the fiat argument--the instant you check "aff" the plan passes, regardless of real-world. The judges didn't buy it (though I still won the round), because of the general assumptions inherent in NFA debate, and probably the debate world in general.


Were the Neg responses any good? I'm sure they must have been.

If they weren't, I must say this ballot is hardly a reflection on the whole league (or across leagues), since the judges simply wouldn't buy an argument, regardless of the refutation. (that doesn't seem right to me)

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:21 pm 
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Delta_FC wrote:
LocutusofBorg wrote:
I've tried to no link it before with the fiat argument--the instant you check "aff" the plan passes, regardless of real-world. The judges didn't buy it (though I still won the round), because of the general assumptions inherent in NFA debate, and probably the debate world in general.


Were the Neg responses any good? I'm sure they must have been.

Delta_FC

Basically the round went like this:
Him: (carded) must work within real-world policies
Me: (paraphrased--I didn't have the book with me) No, fiat is instantaneous
And arguments repeated for the rebuttals.
Considering the fact that focus tradeoffs like the one I posted above are run almost every round in the NFA and (except me that one round) no one ever uses fiat to no-link them, I would say the attitude of the league is pretty dang clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Fiat-linked DAs
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:35 pm 
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First lets look at what fiat is: http://www.nflonline.org/uploads/Rostrum/0603_044_048.pdf Fiat is basically the assumption that the plan will be passed so that you can move from "will this be passed?" to "why this shouldn't be passed." Fiat says the plan will be passed it doesn't mean it is instantaneous. It could take months to get it through congress even with fiat. But it will get through. So you can link this to all sorts of stuff, not now DAs (I ran a DA about the Government Shutdown and how aff plan shouldn't be done right now because it would take distract the government (the judge bought it too :D ), Politics DAs, Political Capitol etc. These are all legit because fiat is just the assumption that it will happen not that it is instantaneous and stuff. My interpretation of fiat makes debate much more real world and thus should be preferred above yours ;)

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